Catalogue Value. Scott 211 Vs 65. Help Me Understand.

I was trying to familiarize myself with banknotes in the 2024 Scott Digital Specialized Catalogue.

I got distracted when I noticed that Scott 211 (4c Jackson) is valued at $25 used. A quick look on ebay found low end at a buck or 2. Quite a few at $3. So I went back to Scott 65, a stamp I am more familiar with, and see it's valued at $3 used. $1 or $2 dollars is usually the ebay low end starting price. Swedish Tiger agrees.

IF you can point me to nice examples of vf 65s for $3 or less, I will bring plenty of cash.

So what am I missing?
EDIT: US Stamps. Sorry I didn't clarify that.

*** Moved by Staff to a more appropriate forum. ***

I slogged through 8 pages of "the biggest and most destructive lie in our hobby" and eventually found my answer. More or less. Thanks for the laugh, alub!

1. Forget whether or not Swedish Tiger agrees.

2. Catalogue values have been discussed a lot. They represent dealer prices that have the cost of personnel and a shop. They also represent the price asked for high quality stamps. Even then, what you want to get will not always be what you want. Many dealers will give you a discount on that catalogue value. ebay sellers include people who sell or even trade stamps but are not always dependent on that income and do not have all the costs of those dealers. Additionally, buyers will discount for the possibility that the unknown sellers are not delivering the expected quality stamp or even the correct stamp. ebay, also, is a competitive market place where dealers often depend on personal relations with customers.

However one looks at catalogue prices, they will not represent the prices paid on these online platforms, or even at auctions. You may find the stamps at 10% - 30% of catalogue value on those platforms. Of course, 10% of $ 25 will still leave $ 2.50 to cover costs. 10% of $1 will not. So, you cannot apply the same logic of overstated catalogue prices to expensive and cheap stamps. The amateur seller on ebay and the professional mortar-and-brick dealer both incur storage costs.

I get all that, but it's just not always how it works. Scott lacks consistency. With the examples below, they seem to look at supply while ignoring everything else.

I dont 't want to get into a 10 page discussion about CV, just seemed odd to me that US #211 is $25, US #65 is $3, and us #26 is $10. I would say the only justification is supply, ignoring everything else. The prices don't do dealers any favors, except for the 211, where it's a huge favor.

Scott is constantly bragging about price adjustments, but... pfft.

It might help if some of the institutions of the hobby step in to the 20th century. Yes, I know it's the 21st century. Perhaps it's hard to change things in a hobby that doesn't change with the times.

The other thing to remember is condition, condition, condition.

I went over the "sold" ebay listings for Scott 211 (4c Jackson). The copies that were selling for a few dollars had short perfs, heavy cancels, toned paper, poor centering, etc. A couple of nicer copies snuck through, but not many.

Copies that meet Scott's condition criteria, were selling around $15.

And here's one that sold for close to double Scott because of it's exceptional centering:



Condition explains most of the differences in prices.

Ok, but now take a look at the 65s. Notoriously bad perfs before any get pulled just for starters. Also better colors get a premium even if they aren't listed in Scott. I don't often see one in $3 to $5 range that I would add to my collection.

26 has similar problems with perfs cutting into design, but I can find vf examples for under $10.

I hope it's OK that I quoted you here. I finally found your helpful comment in that sea of bickering.

Agreed, and this is especially true if you count local, regional, and national philatelic organizations. Based upon my experience working with over 20 of these organizations in the last 15 years, I've reached the sad conclusion that one of the largest obstacles in improving our hobby is "ourselves".

I cannot explain my level of frustration in dealing with stubborn 'old farts' in this hobby. Please do not get me wrong, I have no heartburn if someone wants to stick with how they interfaced and enjoyed the hobby for the last 50 years. My frustration is with those who I have watched over and over block making any changes. They know the hobby has changed, and they do not like it. I think many truly believe that if we went back to doing what the hobby was doing in 1949, things would get better. Many of these people have significant influence in the local, regional, and national philatelic organizations and are activity pushing back and blocking their organization from moving out of the 20th century.

I have seen this with my own eyes over a dozen times. It is not about money, it is not about needing 'someone to do it', it is about influential people who refuse to accept change and new perspectives. I have also seen the positive things that can happen to these organizations (and our hobby) when people open their minds to new concepts and solutions.

These folks I am talking about are not being malicious, nor are they stupid or inconsiderate. Instead, I would say that they have strong convictions. I dare to say that some of them do not want things to change and may be somewhat selfishly wanting things to stay the way they used to be until they are no longer around to care.

The obvious solution is to either get these people to reconsider or move them out of the way. I am reminded of the saying, "lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way". But I have had no successes with of these solutions so instead I only seek to help those organizations who are not being impacted by these folks. I am more optimistic that some of the current situation is due to the 'internet paradigm shift' which really highlighted this 'refusal to change' issue. Hopefully over the next 10-20 years this issue will become less prominent and we will see improvement.
Don

I ran into this a lot during my military service. Old-timers with the mantra "because this is how we've always done it, this is the way we do it now, and it's the way we're always going to do it." The only solution to this kind of road block is to wait for them to age out of the organization or hobby. Sometimes, you can get them to listen to reason (often one-on-one) and evolve, but often this isn't the case. If they're in positions of leadership, you're screwed. If not, you could build consensus among other influential members for the change to occur despite objections.

Change is hard, especially for older people. It renders their specialized knowledge obsolete and forces them to learn something new. Most older stamp collectors who resist change will either be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century or die off. I'd say that it's just the nature of the hobby.

100% Don.

When I started collecting again about 2013 I was surprised by the lack of information online, and the sad state of most organizations websites. Some have come a long way since then. USPCS , for example, others not so much.

Demand.




I find it funny you mention USPCS — U.S. Philatelic Classics Society. That is the likely organization with the greatest percentage of the folks Don is referencing here:

Others are much more difficult. They are right, you are wrong. You are the shiny, new meddler; they are the long-standing, steady hand. They know what is right, you are just a disruptive annoyance, which they will outlast with their stubbornness. So you either resign or otherwise step aside, or fire them. There is little middle ground.

Hey, they're the ones ignoring demand, not me!

I was wondering who Don was referring to. I have no inside information at all. USPCS was just one of only a few organizations I found that started to provided free, online, detailed information and improved their web presence. It's mostly been collectors like Don who have stepped up to provide well organized detailed information.

I started thinking about change when I looked into submitting a cover to PF for expertization. Their website provides a form to print and fill out, then submit IN DUPLICATE WITH PAYMENT ENCLOSED.

Fingers crossed that they will accept a different form of payment.

This is for alub ... how do you know that $55.00 Crossed-Out (offer accepted) ebay item sold for over twice catalog? I've never figured out how to find out actual offer accepted for these $-strike-through items, did you find out actual $ offer accepted? Why didn't you mention it? thanks.

I haven't either....

I called PF last week because I thought I was using some old form to submit items for certification. It had no spaces for me to write my credit card number and expiration date. I thought I was missing something.

Bad enough that I need to maintain a paper printer to print out this form in the first place, versus submitting an online form with a reference number and simply shipping the package.

The nice lady, who answered the phone explained to me that they don't accept credit cards at all. I would have to go get a money order or write a paper check. (A PAPER CHECK?!) Or I could send a note to their PayPal address and pay a 4% fee, if I had PayPal.

Hopefully, my cringe wasn't audible to her.

I've worked in the financial services and payments industry for 35 years (and collected US classics for 45 years). Newsflash: the business that a merchant loses by not accepting electronic payments far exceeds the comparatively trivial cost of enabling your operation to accept customer payments in the way they want to pay. They can stand their ground and sleep while they lose customers by insisting people jump through hoops to get them payment with something they'd rather not pay a fee for.

When something so obviously better is ignored for so long, you can bet the institution is run by dinosaurs. Time to let the dinos go extinct.

LB522 wrote:




If you spoke to a little old lady who answered the phone, chances are you were limited to the boilerplate her bosses allowed her to quote to unknown callers. The PF has been around long enough to know when to break its own rules, and who in the hierarchy has the clout to make that happen. If you didn't get past the lady answering the phone, then chances are you weren't offering enough to get the attention of the real decision makers. In most environments, price and volume have an inverse relation, but only if you are talking with the right people.

But let's face it, the PF is not selling commodities and so is not impressed by the same forces and factors as are the merchants. The number of people available to render qualified opinions is comparatively small, and they usually don't have unlimited time. So one way to regulate the flow is to get persnickety about the mode and manner of payment. You may rest assured it is not going to be the little old lady on the phone who tells you that. Her boss might, before he hangs up on someone who isn't happy with the news. But here's the thing, while and when the PF has stature with the auction houses, they have the community by the short hairs, since there are always more people looking for service than there are venues for providing it.

Young folks aren't the only ones to have that figured out. - Felix Raptor