Stamp Community Family of Web Sites
Thousands of stamps, consistently graded, competitively priced and hundreds of in-depth blog posts to read








Stamp Community Forum
 
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

Time Of Mailing Missing In Cancel Dial

 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 12 / Views: 766Next Topic  
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1047 Posts
Posted 06/18/2024   12:38 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add DonSellos to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
This1937 first-flight cover from Walla Walla, WA does not have a time of mailing in the cancel dial, but has an 'M' in its place. Does the M stand for morning? or, perhaps, midday? Give the centered placement of the M, it appears that the time omission was intentional.

A Pendleton, OR receiving cancel on the shows the cover received at 6pm on Dec 4, 1937.

Thanks.

DonSellos

Send note to Staff

Pillar Of The Community
United States
4276 Posts
Posted 06/18/2024   2:16 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
This1937 first-flight cover from Walla Walla, WA does not have a time of mailing in the cancel dial, but has an 'M' in its place. Does the M stand for morning?


The "M" in AM or PM is the abbreviation for Meridian (Ante and Post), thus Noon.

The air distance from Walla Walla to Pendleton is just under 35 miles.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
6526 Posts
Posted 06/18/2024   2:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
meridiem
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
4276 Posts
Posted 06/18/2024   2:41 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
meridiem


Not on this side of the pond.

Latin root is meridies. The Brits do have the geographical prime meridian located through England.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by Parcelpostguy - 06/18/2024 2:47 pm
Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
6526 Posts
Posted 06/18/2024   2:45 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
AM and PM stand for ante and post meridiem. Meridian is used for 'noon' in American English, but the abbreviation remains Latin.

In British English, a meridian is an (imaginary) line of longitude. 'Prime' has little meaning. This could have been a meridian passing over Ulaanbataar, if a Mongolian scientist had picked it. As it is, someone in England defined it and then someone else in England defined it a few metres away.

Meridian is from the French.

But that, still does not change that AM and PM are Latin abbreviations and meridies does not become meridian in Latin.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by NSK - 06/18/2024 3:02 pm
Pillar Of The Community
United States
4276 Posts
Posted 06/18/2024   3:08 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The OP's question is about a US postmark, for which the AM, PM, M, Noon and Midnight have all been covered in court cases regarding postmarks. Both "Noon" and "Midnight" are moments which are not either AM or PM but exist between what is called AM and what is called PM. The legal wrangling in the USA will not apply beyond its jurisdiction.

In America, MERIDIAN is the spelling be it slang for noon or in the proper Astronomical definition from which mid-day comes. However, thanks to the artificial clock adopted world wide, Local Meridian in the USA or anywhere else is almost never at 12 noon on the local clock even when showing meridian on the local sun dial. And I i wrote before the root is Latin meridies.

We, the USA, won the war of Independence from Great Britain, so we get to spell things our American English way, if we want. But with the move away from BC and AD. I suspect AM and PM will equally fall for wokeness eventually.

And lets not get started about daylight saving time which further screws up when meridian and noon occur in a location, especially in the few countries worldwide which acknowledge daylight time. Heck neither within the USA nor within Europe can do folks agree to use it or not.

EDIT: While I am majority ethnically much different than it is, my last name (surname) is of Dutch derivation. Now it is time to play with my covers....

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by Parcelpostguy - 06/18/2024 3:11 pm
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1047 Posts
Posted 06/19/2024   12:09 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add DonSellos to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Noon it is. Thank you responders.

DonSellos
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1804 Posts
Posted 06/19/2024   9:28 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add GregAlex to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The air distance from Walla Walla to Pendleton is just under 35 miles.


I find this cover interesting from a local perspective, as I live in Pendleton. My guess is that you could fly from WW to Pendleton in less than 20 minutes or drive there in 45, so I'm not sure why a CAM would ever be very cost effective. Are you sure this first flight was between those two airports? Could you show the back stamp?
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by GregAlex - 06/19/2024 9:29 pm
Pillar Of The Community
6326 Posts
Posted 06/19/2024   9:50 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Looking at pages 639-641 in the 5th edition of the American Airmail Catalog (vol 2) about CAM 5, it describes this as an added intermediate stop at Walla Walla on the existing branch between Pendleton, OR and Spokane, WA It also describes some confusion in sending some of the mail in the wrong direction. This appears to be such a piece.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1804 Posts
Posted 06/19/2024   10:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add GregAlex to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Pendleton to Spokane makes a lot more sense. So WW was the stop in between. A quick check of ebay shows a number of these covers and the machine cancels indicate 12 noon. I also spotted one with a Spokane back stamp of 3:30 PM. 3+ hours would be quite a slow flight between those two points, but perhaps it took a while to process the mail.

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1047 Posts
Posted 06/20/2024   12:34 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add DonSellos to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I find this cover interesting from a local perspective, as I live in Pendleton. My guess is that you could fly from WW to Pendleton in less than 20 minutes or drive there in 45, so I'm not sure why a CAM would ever be very cost effective. Are you sure this first flight was between those two airports? Could you show the back stamp?


Well, the cachet says Walla Walla, so reasonably sure. I'm not a first flight collector, cover collected for other reason. Image of cover's reverse below.

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by DonSellos - 06/20/2024 12:38 pm
Pillar Of The Community
6326 Posts
Posted 06/20/2024   3:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The backstamp here is NOT a part of documenting the first flight, but rather following the regulations to backstamp mail to the "general delivery", which was to be held for a certain amount of time before being returned to the sender to to the dead letter office. Regular airmail would not normally receive any backstamp, but often appears as a courtesy on philatelic flights.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
United States
148 Posts
Posted 06/27/2024   3:00 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stampsOnMail to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I'm not an expert on first-day or event cancels, but it is surprising that this has not been pointed out regarding OP's question and cover. Point of "leaving off the time," and the look and feel of this "cancel" as approaching that of First Day of Issue cancels of the period...
I'm guessing OP did not see the world of 1930s cancel styles as "between post office working cancels, hand-applied or machine-applied, and favor or philatelic cancels for purpose of event or first-day covers."
(Also to clarify: not all "event" or "first day" covers were philatelically (that is, with attentive, separate handling) canceled; many were canceled by running through ordinary canceling machines or had ordinary in-use every-day hand cancels applied. But there were cancels "prepared" just for event or first day covers and they have a distinct appearance like the subject of the thread.)
-- Discuss as you wish.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
  Previous TopicReplies: 12 / Views: 766Next Topic  
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.

Go to Top of Page

Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Stamp Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Stamp Community Family - All rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Stamp Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Privacy Policy / Terms of Use    Advertise Here
Stamp Community Forum © 2007 - 2026 Stamp Community Forums
It took 0.19 seconds to lick this stamp. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05