1869 Series 3c - Unused Og Or Altered Used?

Earlier about getting a cert on a no-grill 3c 69? Yeah, to my recollection, the PF won't issue a cert on one unless it's got original gum.

okay, they do one on a used stamp.. at least APS does.. I have one out to them.. it's probably a ironed out 114.

I'd be curious to see what they say... I'm getting ready to send a few things off to the PF, I could post pics if you like..

go ahead

Not to hijack a thread, but this has me thinking about my
used copy of this stamp. It is on cover, and the cover is
pretty bad shape, having been used as scratch paper way back
when... The stamp is still good, and tied to the cover. It
only has some slight splotchy discoloration.

My question is how do I tell if this is the original or reprint?
I don't see any evidence of a grill, but being the noobie I am,
along with my elderly vision, could be conspiring against me.

Dave

I looked up "Chapman, Hosmer, & Co."...
The only link was to a mention in a book about an
1892 Supreme Court case.

I wonder if that law firm lasted from the time of
the first issue of the stamp, until 1892... Seems
like a long time. 1875 or so is closer. Could this
be one of the re-issues? If so, would it be valuable
in it's current state?

a 125 used - vf is worth only $28680.60 what do you think?
only real way to tell is the grill... since yours is on cover..
no one could have ironed it out, you would think..

grills on these could be very faint.. so I have read. only way to be sure is to remove it from the cover..

the 114 came out in March 27, 1869, the 125 (the expensive one) came out in 1875. it could be either one... but would some one keep a stamp around for 9 years?
what is the date on the cover?

Not to rain on your parade, but if you found a reissue used on a normal business correspondence cover I would be beyond shocked. You guys actually got me digging up my info on the '69 reissues.

OK, first of all, 1 cover exists, it was sold to Ezra Cole in 1956 and hasn't been on the market since. Siegel also sold about 4 years ago one used on piece along with a 2 cent reprint. It brought $25,000.

What's important to remember is that the few used copies were actually used quite a few years after they were issued, so they tend to come cancelled with duplex style cancellations, both the cover and the piece were used in 1884. Also, reprints are printed on bright, white paper and the perfs in them tend to be very clear and sharp.

I think the piece sold in Siegel's sale #911 in 2006.

billw2..the most important thing is that..
1: not all have been discovered
2: not all have been discovered
and finally
not all have been discovered.

It's possible that more exist... however...

Here's what makes that cover improbable: (Although anything is possible, including some of Jimmy Hoffa's ashes being in it ;)

And bear in mind that I do collect covers of this period, so while I am far from an expert, there's a few things that I look at before I buy a cover. Basically, I look for red flags, does the cover make sense? I've seen plenty of "Violet" 24c 61s or "Steel Blue" 24c covers and stamps that were used years and years after the stamps were known to be used. Possible? Yes. Likely? Obama is more likely to invade Bermuda.

First, let's look at the stamps themselves, these were probably issued for the US Centennial in 1876, and for certain, these were sold to stamp collectors in the extreme vast majority of cases. If the post office reissued, say, the Presidential issue, how many people would order them specifically off, say, the USPS's website for postage? Oh, us collectors would, but the general public? Doubtful. They'll buy Elvis or Bugs Bunny stamsp but could care less about definitives. Also, bear in mind that the public did not like the 1869 issue when it was introduced.

Of the handful of 61 and 69 reissues known on cover, the only ones I have ever seen have been either Philatelic usages, or on Centennial Exposition covers. Most of the Philatelic usages were used at much later dates, from the early 1880s.

This cover is from a business, and since it was heavily docketed by, I would assume, the addressee, it was probably treated as a piece of scrap paper after it was received.

This clearly isn't a Philatelic use then, strike 1.

Now, let's look at the cancellation on this cover and compare it to known cancellations used from Washington DC. A quick check on of covers used from DC as well as a few that I have indicates that this type of CDS was used from the late 1860s to the early 1870s. Seeing as the handful of known genuinely used 125s have either Duplex Cancels, which weren't used until about 1880 or New York registry Ovals, this is strike #2 against the cover being franked with a 125. Think about it, 1/3-1/2 of the known used 125s have registry cancels, how many 3c stamps back then were used on registered mail? :)

Now, let's compare this cover to ones used during the period when these stamps were being used in the mails, by then Washington DC was using different style CDS handstamps and the cancels being used were no longer quartered cork killers. Remember, a place like DC was going to be handling a LOT of mail and was most likely using the "latest and greatest" equipment that the post office had back then.

So that's Strike #3, the cover was postmarked before 1875.

I'm not trying to dash anyone's hopes, but you have to be critical. Had that cover been used from New York, and from, say, a known stamp dealer or collector (or to one) and it was fresh and bright with a great impression.. well, then we can get all excited :D

Bill

It is believed that some grilling was performed with multiple sheets resulting in faint grill indications. Checking with watermark fluid will often show indications of the grill even if it has been pressed out. Since the purpose of the grill was to breakdown the fiber of the paper to prevent reuse of the stamps they will often show up when check just as a pressed crease.

billw2.. I don't see a cancellation date on that cover do you? If so, please point it out to me.

did no one outside of stamp collecting buy the 1875 stamps?

You don't need to see a date in the cancellation, by 1875 (When these were issued) that cancellation was no longer in use.

Here's a cover that I own. Without a shadow of a doubt, even though no date shows and even though I converted it to monochrome, you can identify the stamp and the year of use. There's enough info here for any recognized authority on these stamps to unequivocally identify the stamp and when it was sent.



And did non-philatelists buy the reissues? Possibly, but I doubt many did.

Russ,

Correct. I have grilled 61s on cover where you can see a VERY strong grill, right through the cancel. I have another cover that I bought with a 24c Grey Lilac on it that I thought was a late period double rate use. I didn't see any grill on the stamp but when I sent it in for a cert it came back as an F grill, aka Scott 99.

billw.. I did not know about that cancellation. Didn't know it was not in use by 1875.
as for your cover, I can't identify the stamp for certain, the resolution is to small.
Thanks for the information though.