Paypal Madness Has To Stop

For me personally, the worst thing about trying to sell stamps on ebay is the Ebay/Paypal buyer protection programme. When a buyer fails to receive an item s/he sometimes starts a Paypal case against the seller. When this happens, Paypal withholds money from the seller's account and, after a so-called 'investigation,' uses this money to give a refund to the buyer.

Paypal does not consider the possibility that the buyer is lying about not having received an item and is hoping to get it for free or that the item was simply lost in the mail.

I recently sold and duly posted a stamp to a buyer in Shanghai, China, who subsequently claimed he never received the stamp. Paypal wrote today to say that unless I can provide proof of postage they will decide in favour of the buyer. So I lose both the stamp AND the money (25.50 pounds) the buyer paid me for the stamp and for postage.

Paypal have proven entirely inflexible about this issue. They have ignored my messages pointing out that in Australia it is NOT POSSIBLE to provide proof of postage unless the buyer choose to have the item sent by registered mail. Since it costs $13.80 for an item to be sent by registered mail to a foreign country, very few buyers are willing to take up this option.

I spoke on the phone about this problem to a Paypal representative who had the effrontery to suggest to me that I pay for the cost of registration myself. When I said that it was economic lunacy to pay $13.80 to post items which have sold for as little as 99 cents, her attitude was basically 'too bad.'

In other words, if a buyer does not receive an item the seller's dishonest is assumed. The only way a seller could protect him/herself against Paypal's bias in favour of buyer is by indulging paying out of his or her own pocket to register every single item that s/he mails
!!

Isn't this situation outrageous? How can people - except perhaps professional dealers who may have insurance to cover such situations - sell stamps on ebay when they face an impossible battle against the unaccountable despotism that is Paypal?

I really think it's time something was done about Paypal, which is supposed to be a simple medium for facilitating online commerce. In fact, it sets itself up as judge and jury when a buyer claims an item has not been received.

Is there a way out of this Kafkaesque nightmare?

SUPPORTING DOCUMENTATION #1

Letter from Paypao.

We are currently in the process of investigating the following claim:

Complaint Details
------------------------------
Buyer's name: jing weiming
Buyer's email: richardjing@hotmail.com
Transaction ID: 5SR91176R0871571W

Transaction date: 11 Oct 2010
Transaction amount: 25.50 GBP
Your transaction ID: 6PV78223UW6737347
Case number: PP-001-123-004-744
------------------------------

In order to continue with the investigation of the claim, we need
documentation confirming shipment to the buyer's address.

To help us resolve this matter promptly, we request that you provide proof
of shipping for the package associated with this claim. The documents
should be faxed to PayPal at (02) 8223-9509. Include a cover sheet with
your fax that includes the email address registered on your PayPal account
and the ID number of the claim PP-001-123-004-744 so we may attach the
document to the claim as quickly as possible. The proof of shipping should
be a copy of the actual shipping label on the package that shows the
destination address and the shipping company's stamp to verify the shipment
date.

We must receive this information within the next 72 hours. If you do not
reply to us within 72 hours, we will stop investigation on this claim and
find in favor of the buyer.

Thank you for your patience and cooperation regarding this matter.

Sincerely,
Natasha
Protection Services Department
PayPal, an ebay Company

DOCUMENT #2 - MY REPLY

Have you not been reading my messages?

In Australia it is NOT POSSIBLE to provide proof of postage unless the buyer chooses to have the item sent by registered mail.

The buyer was given this option and chose not to have the item sent by registered mail. It is not my fault if buyers do not choose to have their items sent by registered mail.

I state clearly on my ebay seller's page that if the buyer chooses not to have the item sent by registered mail I am not responsible for items which are lost or damaged in the mail. It is outrageous to suggest that I am responsible in such circumstances.

By the way, the buyer cannot provide proof that he has not received the item. You need to consider the possibility that he has and that he is hoping to get the item for free.

I note that Paypal holds the seller (i.e., me) responsible for the failure of the postal system to deliver this item to the buyer, in other words it assumes my dishonesty, but it does not assume the possibility that the buyer is being dishonest and is lying about not having received the item.

Paypal is thus a conspiracy against sellers. Paypal is evil. I hate you for persecuting me like this.

Just start charging extra for delivery confirmation on all your shipments.

smauggie, you can only get delivery confirmation if you send an item by registered mail.

I don't understand the beef. You know what has to be done to be covered. You chose to ignore the requirements because you don't agree with them. You got burned because of it. Like my grandpappy used to tell me when I was a yonker... Suck it up butterecup.

Use Moneybookers.

Paypal seems to live in an imaginary world where letters regularly go missing in the mail. This article is about the UK. It says that each year over 14.4 million items go missing in the mail, most delivered to the wrong address!

Royal Mail 'loses 14.4m letters'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3681547.stm

Excerpt: A Postwatch 'of 2,100 people found more than half had received mail not intended for them in the past six months. About half delivered it themselves to the right address but one in 20 said they threw the item away and a handful admitted they had opened post which was not theirs.'

'Use Moneybookers.'

Most buyers on ebay don't have Moneybookers account. I never had even one offer to pay by Moneybookers.

scubu, you're auggesting that I pay $13.80 every time out of my own money?

That would actually be more than what I am making most times from selling the stamps.

Would you do this yourself?

'Paypal seems to live in an imaginary world where letters DO NOT regularly go missing in the mail.' I mean to write!

No, I couldn't care less who pays it, what I'm suggesting is that you either follow the rules or don't whine. You willingly didn't follow the required guidelines, now you're mad at Paypal when it's entirely your own fault. Paypal is not to blame one iota. Doesn't make any sense now does it?

scubu, you don't make any sense.

I didn't realize Australia did not offer proof of shipment without registration. Interesting.

Here's a weird idea, but it might suffice. Will the post office hand-cancel the item in your presence? If so, and you have a digital camera (cellphone camera "might" work), take a snapshot of the package showing the cancel date and shipping address. You can ask PayPal ahead of time if that is sufficient proof of mailing.

Good idea, K.

You shout this Sir,
but I disagree.

I have traded 10 years (never used ebay) and only lost 1
shipment, my very first ever, I sent to a Univesity in Turkey.
I offered to resend the shipment,
but the purchaser declined, I showed him proof of postage.

Discounting traders wishes for commemorative stamps,
I send all my shipments with labels, that is the deal.
that way you can get proof of postage..free.

It may not be to registered std,
but is sufficient to encourage ebay I should think.

Here is a sample of the receipt of trade in 2009
If you had such a receipt posted to China
I am sure that would have gone a long way in encouraging
a positive outcome.

Further than that, what is your solution?
You feel agrieved because your postion is self centred.
You have to consider both sides of the loss,
accept the conditions, or cease trading.

'I didn't realize Australia did not offer proof of shipment without registration.'

No, we don't. And when I rang Australia Post to ask if they'd thought of introducing Confirmation of Mailing like they have in the US and the UK they said they weren't and what's more that no one had even asked for it before!

Regarding the camera idea, I'm going to do that today for the first time. It will be interesting to see how the post office people take it.

There's no point in trying to communicate with Paypal about this. The Paypal people never actually respond to anything I write. They just send me what appear to be standard letters. They always say the exact same thing as if I hadn't written to them at all.