Help Identifying Stamps 461, 499, 500, 519?

Hello, new here. I've been organizing my dad's old stamp collection in order to sell and have narrowed down a few stamps that might have some value. Here are two of them. Both are Perf 11x11 and to the best of my abilities are not offset printing. I do not have the equipment, nor skills to try and find watermarks so I don't have that info. Based on my own research I believe they are either 461, 499, 500, 519(probably not), or 546. Can you tell me if I'm wrong and is there anything I can do to further narrow down the possibilities? Thanks for your help

I measured this one to be 18-19x22mm



I measured this one to be 19-20x21-22mm
I don't think the lack of perforations on the right is very significant, but upon close inspection it is cut at a diagonal and there is a bit of red on the lower edge

First welcome to SCF. Both stamps are flat plate printings Type I. The are almost certainly 499. The perf 11 Type I is unwatermarked 499 or matermark 190(single line) 461. The 461 is rare but you would have to check the watermark to make sure.

Mr Fischers-- can't be a 519- because they were made from the old "TWO CENTS" stamp, when they found some old printed imperforate sheets, and then perforated them with the current Perf 11-- really tough stamp.

As Russ said also 461 is a really tough stamp- and these aren't the right color-- 461 is a pale carmine, not a rose like the 499.

The 500 jumps right out at you if you've looked at thousands of these 2c red W-F stamps. Unique rose color unlike all the others and the toga rope really stands out.

I'm 99.99% sure that these have to be 499's.

Here are 4 pics of mine-- the 499 and 461 (the 461 has an APS cert) and 500 (I've found 2 of these- not certed, but they are definitely 500's), and 519 (also has an APS cert). Hope they're helpful:

461--


499-


500--


519--


Thanks, Ray

499's for certain. Still great stamps though. Why sell them? You ought to keep them and expand your dad's collection. That's just MY personal opinion though. HEY!, Welcome to the board S.C.F.!

Welcome mrfishers3. Good to see the Washington/Franklins. They can be a challenge. You say that you haven't checked watermarks. Unfortunately, watermarks are a must on these types of stamps.

ray.mac---gorgeous stamps. I have all those you showed. The color of the 461 is very disinctive. Also the 500, which is not too difficult a stamp to identify.

Ok, thanks for the help, sometime this week I think I'll make a stop at the hobby shop and see of I can get some watermark fluid both to be sure on these stamps and to have for others

rohumpy- I was fortunate in about 1989 to make a trade at one of the weekly bourses they used to have in St. Paul. A guy I used to talk to had a cigar box of 2c reds, he collected world, I didn't, and I had an old 1936 Scott album that had been creamed, but still had some nice material-- we traded straight up.

The box was definitely unchecked, and had thousands of both style TWO and 2 cent WF's, coils, offsets, imperfs, and it took me an entire winter, but going through them, perfing every one, watermarking every one, and then getting hold of Martin Armstrong's book, it's a pretty good education. Found 2- 500's in there, and like I said earlier, they just kind of "jumped" at me, and the color was really obvious, once I'd seen thousands of them. It's amazing how many 500's on ebay are not #500-- I've personally emailed a bunch of sellers asking them to remove the stamp.

I found what I thought were 2- 491's. I submitted one to BW, and he found a watermark after I wrote him that if he found one, I'd eat it! I did not eat it! I have another one that was cut straight with a coil dispenser- no perfs at all on one side- but haven't ever submitted it to anyone.

I wish I could find another lot just like it-- I've got another one with ONE CENT perf 12's- not as many variations, so I've never really dove into that one. But for anyone who wants to understand the 2c WF, it's definitely the way to go....

Thanks, Ray

ray.mac, I have the feeling that lots like the one you describe are few and far between.

The watermarks on the W/F's are challenging to say the least. I think you have to accept that there may be some stamps which just can't be identified with certainty.

mr.fishers3,

If the hobby shop doesn't carry watermark fluid you can use Ronsonol lighter fluid instead.

These links may help you with your Washington/Franklin identifications:

http://www.askphil.org/W-F/Index.htm

http://www.1847usa.com/1908Washingt...entifier.htm

http://www.1847usa.com/1908FranklinIdentifier.htm

http://www.jamesdire.net/W-F.html

Good luck!

Steve

Mr. Fischers-- best way to learn the W/F's are to understand the history and how each issue evolved, and why the perf and watermark and printing changes. 2 great references:

Martin A. Armstrong's, "Washington Franklins 1908-1921"
Paul Schmid's, "The Expert's Book"

Neither are terribly technical- actually the Armstrong book kind of reads like a story, but both books are classics, and to really understand these issues, either is a must-have.....

Good Luck, and welcome...Ray