Fake Cancellations

I'm considering purchasing a high value US classic for sale for less than one-sixth of its catalogue value. Chances are that I'll never be able to afford to buy this stamp at a price even close to this one. It is reasonably well-centered with a relatively clean design. So far so good. However, the seller is up front in indicating that the cancellation on the stamp is a fake. This particular stamp is valued significantly higher if cancelled, so obviously someone in the past fraudulently attempted to alter it. I'm looking for a bit of sage advice on this one. Does the fake cancellation completely obliterate the desirability of this stamp?

Unfortunately it would ruin it for me. It is no longer a mint stamp, but is not a used stamp either. Really unfortunate

Then the proper reference value should be based on the unused stamp.

Depending on the rarity, 1/6 of catalog value for an altered stamp is in general WAY WAY overpriced -- unless there are less than 10 copies of this stamp in existence.

Not sage advice, but just my personal opinion.

Can you give us the Scott number, or the catalog value for an unused stamp?

Scott #39

I wouldn't but ultimately it's your call. I see the temptation there as I too would jump at a chance to get one but since it's been altered and has a fake cancel it automatically throws up more red flags as this has bee forged a lot too. Does it have a cert?

I'm using 2010 Scott US Specialized Valuing Supplement.

VF unused OG hinged is $3500
VF unused no gum is $1250

Now, your stamp is not only no gum, but it is altered, which means it will be no better than the lowest category available (you have to disregard centering because the primary fault of forgery carries more weight than the centering).

Good unused no gum is $250.

The stamp is rare, but not that rare. Condition and genuineness are everything when you are talking about stamps with 4-digit premiums. While I don't collect classic US anymore, I can't imagine paying more than $25 for it (assuming that I was willing to buy an altered stamp to begin with).

Again, just my personal opinion. If you really like the stamp, then buy it. However, if someone is selling it to you for 1/6 of used catalog price, I would say a definite pass.

No one with any knowledge at all would sell that stamp for $25 if it is sound and well centered and the only fault is a fake cancel. Most "used" examples of #39 have fake cancels, and many genuine and fake examples are repaired and/or reperforated. IF it really is sound, than any dealer will ask a pretty fair price for it even with the fake cancel, and plenty of collectors would be interested. The more realistic the cancel is, the more they will ask.
Does this stamp have a cert? If so, it is really important to read it to see what other issues the stamp might have. If not, it should, and that would make me very suspicious despite being told about the cancel.

Starting to sound more like a fake stamp rather than a fake cancel.

If it has a fake cancel, then it is not sound.

If anyone thinks ~$1666 (1/6 of catalog) is a good value for the stamp, they are definitely welcome to that opinion and welcome to purchase the stamp for their collection. I don't have any problems with that. But you are basically paying 133% of catalog value of a VF no gum stamp with a fake cancel. To me, that is paying someone $400 to put a fake cancel on an unused stamp. I don't understand the logic, but then again it's not my collection.



{My apologies for my selective quoting to point out that some people consider the "fake" part to be sufficient criteria for disqualification}

What you refer to as "knowledge", others might refer to as something else. I guess I have a limited budget, so I can't imagine deliberately paying that for something that has a fake cancel on it. But then again, there is a market for everything, just like the graded/encapsulated modern stamps. And as you noted, there apparently is a market for fake cancels as well. At least the seller was honest about what was being sold. We obviously don't have the same standards, but then again, Lpmiller was asking for opinions and he is getting them.

k

Assuming the stamp itself is not fake, I would be tempted if it were 1/6 of $250. I would also like to understand the information that determines that the cancellation is fake. That's a story of itself.

Which would be ~$40, the same order of magnitude I was referring to.

My point was, if I was willing to consider deliberately buying a stamp with a fake cancel, it would have to be in that ballpark order of magnitude.

If the seller was asking 1/6 of unused catalog value $3500, that would make it $500+. I had assumed Lpmiller was referring to 1/6 of used catalog value, which would make the purchase $1600+. But either way, 1/6 of catalog value seems excessive to me for a fake cancel. Again, just my opinion.

k

I'm not suggesting that someone pay 1/6th of the catalog of a genuinely used #39 for one with a fake cancel; no where did I suggest anything of the sort. You should be careful about putting words into someone's mouth. It is certainly an unused stamp as far as how the value is determined. But the idea that the centering and overall condition no longer matters because the cancel is fake is simply not true, at least on a fairly scarce stamp that often comes both defective AND with a fake cancel.
There has ALWAYS been a market for nice appearing but flawed stamps, whether it is due to damage or due to certain kinds of alterations, that is not remotely new. By knowledge I mean any longtime collector or dealer who is aware of how few undamaged examples exist, and knows the MARKET value of this stamp. #39 is popular enough that any number of collectors who cannot afford a nice example mint or used might be willing to pay 10% of the unused catalog for a nice appearing example with a fake cancel, just as there are people who will knowingly pay for scarce stamps that have been cleaned. I just saw a whole collection filled with items like this (plus many that are not) that catalogs over $200,000. Eventually at auction it will bring about 15% to some dealer (hopefully an honest one) who will sell them for what they are and still make a profit.
As for having the same standards, you know absolutely nothing of mine. I was making a comment on a specific stamp in an attempt to answer a question that was asked based on the tendencies of the market as I have observed them. This says nothing about what I might or might not spend money on, and certainly says nothing about any of my standards.

Thanks for all your advice on this. Having seen several forgeries of this stamp for sale, I was initially dubious about its authenticity, checked it thoroughly, and believe that it is, in fact, a real #39. There do not appear to be any thins, creases, tears, or other faults besides the stated fake cancellation. kehess makes a very good point about how the seller knows that the cancellation is a fake. It seems to indicate that there is a cert out there on it already. If the seller is willing to share that info so much the better. If not, then it's reasonable to assume that there's something fishy going on here.

Can we see an image of the stamp in question?

Nor did I say that you said that. I stated if "anyone", and I also stated that I didn't have any problems with that. Note that it is in a completely separate paragraph. If it was misconstrued, then I apologize for not being more clear about it.

Our standard is different on this matter. I don't consider a stamp that has a fault (fake cancel) to be sound. Looking back, I guess what you meant was if it was "otherwise sound", but I don't want to put words in your mouth. Also, I'm not willing to consider buying a stamp with a fake cancel. There's nothing wrong with having a different buying standard. I'm not sure why that is a problem. Obviously others have chimed in on their willingness to consider such stamps.

k

A fake cancel is not a fault, it's an alteration. There is a difference. That does not make it desirable, but they are not the same thing. The difference between saying "sound but with a fake cancel" or "a fake cancel but otherwise sound" is just semantics.
You keep assuming that I would buy a stamp with a fake cancel simply because I recognize that some people do; as a revenue collector that problem rarely arises and if it did I would have no interest except as a reference example. The bigger problem is stamps with cleaned cancels. I don't like those either, although I might buy one if it has a scarce plate variety and it is reasonably priced.