#c15 $2.60 Blue 1930 Graf Zeppelin Air Mail Mlh/Og XFs

They were largely philatelic when issued, so a lot of them entered collections and have stayed in circulation among collectors ever since. Certainly some are lost every year due to neglect, fire, what have you, but there are still a lot out there.

Final Hammer: $571

Just curious what SCF members think of the final price - too high, low, or just right?

I'll get the obvious answer out of the way. If ebay is a true measure of market value, then the price was just right. However, my observation of auction house prices has seen classic US selling for much higher than ebay (specifically Harmer-Shau, who holds two auctions a year here in Portland).

Hmm, I wonder about the state of auction houses? Sounds like another topic worth exploring ...

" If ebay is a true measure of market value"

It's not. It can't be, because there is no way to know the accuracy of descriptions and the bidders run the gamut from total know nothings (possible insane bids) to top experts. And only a very tiny percentage of the total number of potentially interested people bid, or even saw this or any item out there. Unless one knows the seller and knows the description is accurate, most mint OG stamp prices must be looked on with a grain of salt as to their accuracy. Many used classics as well. This one went too high for such an easily found stamp.

It is, it has been, and it will continue to be so. You don't have to like it, but it is a fact that ebay not only influences market prices of stamps, but is commonly used by collectors and dealers alike as an authoritative source for the current market value of stamps.




Balderdash. This statement isn't supported by anything other than an uninformed opinion - just like your previous statements in this thread - which were proven wrong.




Partially true. A wise collector is always a skeptic. But ebay provides a level of safety not found anywhere else. If the item is not as described, return it for a full refund. This is an ebay policy, not a seller policy. Try doing that with a stamp bought at your local philatelic show from some part-time dealer from out of town!




This stamp is easily found, yes. There are nearly 200 C15s listed on ebay right now. That said, this stamp is still is one of the most sought after US classics and still sells very well. This stamp sold for what it was worth, and not a penny less.

I challenge you to find 3 examples of this stamp in the same, or better condition, sold by any auction house in the last 12 months for the same, or less money. There will always be an anomoly out there - true bargains are to be had - but there is no trend indicating this stamp sold for too much.

Brian

I suggest you check Siegel sale 1061 lot 4070 (November 2013), graded a superb 98 in perfect condition which sold for $300. Admittedly that is something of an aberration, but stamps with hinge marks or (possible) thins always sell for less than this stamp did.
You might think that my statement about the number of people who view any particular stamp is balderdash, but I have been following ebay for 20 years, and I know all about it's ups and downs.
There are thousands of collectors who would like to own an example of this stamp; I seriously doubt that more than a few hundred at most saw this one. That IS a tiny percentage, and that will always be true for this type of item, a basic catalog number with no varieties. Specialty items will usually get a higher percentage of interested bidders because there are fewer of them, and the items tend to show up less often.
I have worked for an auction house and for dealers at times, and I know the high survival rates of the Zepps. They were created for collectors, nearly all that were purchased were saved or used on Zepp flights which were then saved. Yes, they are popular, and they do sell, but there are nicer examples out there for the same money. Lots of them. Someone did pay too much for this, I hope they are happy with it.
As for ebay actually being the market, does that mean when I bought a scarce plate variety for 12.5% of catalog recently that I should expect that to be the market from now on? I'll have to tell those dealers asking 85%-90% that they are overcharging.

Rev,

First off, forgive my terse comment. You are a better man for not feeding my tendancy to argue ...

I, too, am an ebay junkie (my words, not yours). I have followed the ups and downs of Stamps and comic books on ebay with great interest. While I can only offer anecdotal evidence, one theme is not lost on me - highly graded stamps sell for a premium, not a discount. While this one is not graded, my untrained eye would call this stamp VF/XF 85 or XF 90, and was a good price at less than current Scott catalogue.

Yes, these are philatelic in purpose, and are probably over-valued. But I have been in the market for one in VF 80 or better for at least 15 years, and have never found one in that condition for my target price of 50% of Scott. If you pointed me to a C15 at that price, I would buy it today!




To answer the latter question first, 'Yes'. It's a rare dealer who does not overcharge.

As for the former? Perhaps it was an abberation, or more likely it simply wasn't recognized as being the rare variety by the potential buyers. I have to ask: Did the seller identify it as such? Did the image used in the listing clearly show the plate variety? Was the seller well-established and trusted?

A more accurate survey would be to look up the 'sold' listings of that specific plate variety on ebay and take an average of the prices realized. If they are all selling at that price, then you answered your own question.

Brian

Seems like a fair price to me. The seller has a good reputation on ebay, so although it is a pig in a poke, the chances are it has no serious problems. The Zepp set is still very popular and they are on many want-lists. Historical note: a set of 3 sold at auction for 9000$ in 1979, so prices can be seen as moderating.

Not trying to stir this up...with me being new to viewing the Siegel auction lots. Maybe I'm not reading it correctly but it appears to me that sale 1061 lot 4070 was actually sold for $3750.00. The item that sold for $300.00 was a used stamp.

I took a look at Seigel and even though that specific example wasn't correctly identified, there were at least 5 XF+ mint/hinged (3 of which were graded 95) examples that sold for less than this stamp going back to 2001 - two in the past year alone, with the cheapest one selling for $425 in 2001.

I don't know how many of these Seigel sells per year, but the odds of winning one at those prices are pretty slim. That is, they are the exceptions, not the rule.

Brian

Of the items I saw sold in 2013, the avg price of a MNH C15 grade 90+ is roughly $900.00 excluding the Gem item. Question I have now ties into your earlier comment ebay versus Auction House. Would this same item sell for a higher price on Siegel, or, since most or all that sold in 2013 by Siegel had certs, did that drive up the price?

Seigel probably has the best reputation of all stamp auction houses, so I believe that with, or without a cert, they would generate more $$ for a stamp than any other source. I also believe that to be true of most of the high-end auction houses still in business.

Brian

I also think this is a Stamp for the serious collector only. Therefore, would you pay extra for a piece because it passed through a Siegel auction ? I wouldn't. The example shown above really is a beautiful piece and I would think the Zepps are as iconic of a US stamp as the Western Cattle in storm from the Omaha issue and premium pieces are fetching good returns lately.

I took my info about that lot off of Siegel power search, it is the first item under the C15 search, and it is a mint stamp. Of course they might have easily made a mistake in the price.
This stamp would probably have sold for less at a Siegel auction:
1)the description would have almost certainly been accurate (I have seen inaccurate descriptions at Siegel for revenues occasionally, but not for C13-C15 where they have written up several hundred)
2) numerous dealers would have examined it, these are the people who know the market best, plus they have to have a profit margin so they would all have a very definite price they would be willing to pay for a stamp like this
3) it's even possible that a stamp like this one might stay in a large lot to help enhance it; I have cataloged many collections in the $25-$50 thousand range that went as auction lots that had nice sets of Zepps in them for that reason.

Rileysan, the variety that I found was sold by a reputable west coast dealer, but one not especially knowledgeable in revenues. It was described as the normal stamp, which is the way most examples on ebay are described when found, and frankly the way many show dealers describe them as well. Most dealers do not pay much attention to revenues anyway, and after 40+ years of studying them I have learned to take ebay prices on a case by case basis and not to think of them as setting any kind of market level.

One objection to this very interesting chat.

Stallzer, I know what you meant, and you meant no harm, but I disagree with your use of "serious collector." Did you perhaps mean a "wealthy" or "well-heeled" collector?

I think I am a "serious" collector, as are a lot of folks here, but I could not possible afford to touch this stamp.

Thanks.