Questions On Two Early Stamps

I have found two questionable stamps in an older pre 70's collection:

The first, which I have pretty much determined is a fake/forgery (or just a "modified" space filler), is US #317...I was curious as to what kind of value would I put on this...damaged #304?? just curious.

second is US #388...possibly is not a fake/forgery. and even in 1983, the catalog list it as only $85 used, but now in excess of $2K. Havent checked other older catalogs. reason for the question is that if the stamp was not worth much back when this collection was assembled, it may not have been worth near what it is now in comparable value. the watermark & semi- magnified checks and all have pointed it to being this stamp.

If I remember correctly # 388 is a perf. 12 single line watermark vertical coil. If you have determined this check perf's for irregularities it could possibly be a #384 imperforate with faked perf's

388 is one of the most difficult stamps in US Philately. Almost 100% of the used 388's out there are forgeries. Very few certified copies are out there. Without even looking at it, there is very little chance that it is truly a 388. This is one stamp that should never be bought without a cert, for any reason....

Hope this is helpful...Ray

perfs look fine on the 388...though one s.e. looks uneven under magnification and a good straight backing to eyeball it against. most likely someone wanted a placefiller. I know now the 317 is forged. that one hase little p ips on the one "straight" side that line up with perf 12. otherwise nice condition by far..I've marked my album as to the forgeries but not sure about how to mark the stamps permanently but not as to distract from appearance. ink the back as forged?? I won't be getting rid of them just use them as placefillers, but in case the mounts drop out as they sometimes do, I'll have a caution note on the stamp. what's anyone's opinion on general practice on marking such items in a collection other than moving to another one under the errors/freaks/oddities/fakes/forgeries? like I need another topical collection..*L*

Oh and like I mentioned the 388 was considered probably genuine jest because in my 1940 scott catalog it lists it as $10, my 1983 catalog lists it as $85, and now I see it over $2K so although a little expensive back onlyu as far as even 1983 it would not be super desirable. It just seemes that the comparable value has skyrocketed in the last few decades over other stamps. Plus this small collection that I found these in was not filled in pages or stamps past 1969, so I deemed it unlikely the old owner (judging from the condition/sampling of the collection) was into misleading. possibly he was duped early on also...or as I said mayhap he wanted to fill a hole as the spots were filled around them well enough. I just happened apon the two when I was leafing through my new "barn find"

It should be remembered that a stamp that cost $10 in 1940 is equal to a stamp cataloging about $166 today; there was plenty of incentive to take a stamp that had a 1 cent catalog value at the time and alter it.

As mentioned by others, the chances of this being a genuine US #388 are relatively remote, unless you get it appropriately expertized. On the other hand, if it is a genuine Scott #388 the values I have from Scott Catalogs show a slightly different value trend:

1983 - Scott #388 Used Value: $ 70.00 (listed with warning about large number of fakes).
2002 - Scott #388 Used Value: $ 375.00 (listing started appearing in italics).
2011 - Scott #388 Used Value: $2,250.00
2013 - Scott #388 Used Value: $2,250.00

wt1, looked the #388 up in my 1958 Scott it was valued at $11.00 used with a 2 notes one saying that this set of coils are the rarest, only a small supply being used at Orangeburg N.Y. and a warning about fraudulent perf's on imperf. stamps. So I think as you do the chance this is a real #388 is quite slim.

This presentation might be helpful to look at too. Even the expertizing certificates can be faked, as noted in the presentation, so it's always "buyers beware":

http://www.collectorsclub.org/Prese...0Shoults.pdf

Chewie....
Just a thought....
When do you think stamps were being faked??
I promise it was before 1970!
(not saying yours is not real....but fakes do exist)

wt1, excellent reference. A good find indeed, I have been collecting Wash, Frank issues for 45+ yrs. and find this pdf to be loaded with good info. for everyone. well done wt1 and thank you.

Oh I know the slim possibility. one can always hope...sort of like the tarp covered corvette with 50 miles on it that the owners dad is selling for $500 just because the son died in the war just after he purchased it..*L* Anyhow, the one edge of 388 is definately NOT straight...so yes it is a 99.99% a faked one or one than cannot be passed as authentic. So what are the thoughts on marking them..on the back in ink as such or what? I know I'll never have the real ones, so I'll use them as placeholders as the original collector did.

Kevin, I know. I've been collecting since the 70's...but like I said one can always hope and it was a good attempt until magnification came along. anyhow, wt1, that pdf on the site is great. very technical..what I was looking for. Thanks

If it were me and there was any doubt to it being a forgery, I would only mark it lightly in pencil as long as it were to remain in my hands. But I would hate to recommend anyone write in ink without having seen the stamp in person or without it having been expertized.

sort of what I was thinking. thanks all.