Seeking Opinions On This #391 Coil Pair

What do you guys think of this #391 coil pair; fake or real?
Thanks in advance for any input,
Don

@51studebaker: Looks to me a fake perfs, look at the alignment on top perfs
and spacing in the middle ones

The perforation holes between the stamps are (a) irregularly spaced, so not a constant gauge, and (b) irregularly spaced between the two stamps (some higher, lower than others). Completely fabricated at least between the stamps.

The top perforations are also irregularly spaced above the top of the stamp design. Try aligning the perforation edges with a straight line (in this scan,align the top perforations with the top of your computer screen, and observe how irregularly spaced vertically they are. Completely fabricated at the top.

It is an obvious fake and any seller with any degree of experience should know it's fake. Interestingly, even though we often report these kinds of fakes on StampSmarter and notify the sellers, they often go ahead and sell them anyway, even in cases where we have "guaranteed" our opinion that they are fake by offering to pay for a cert. if any US-based expert service will describe it as a genuine coil. This becomes a real problem ethically, doesn't it? But as Clark "cfrphoto" has correctly pointed out, buyers reduce the chances of dealing with ethically-challenged sellers by noting if they are APS or ASDA members, as well as asking on boards like this one whether readers have had buying experiences with the seller. While membership in these organizations doesn't guarantee the seller is ethical, it DOES guarantee that to be a member, he must agree with the Bylaws and Code of Ethics, and is subject to the complaint procedure if he is challenged, so his risk is far greater. If the seller is not a member, you have no recourse through those organizations. And often the seller is fully aware of this and is not going to join or has resigned from one or both, which is also often a warning sign to be careful in dealing with those sellers.

And by the way, I would guarantee that this item is fake and be willing to pay for a cert. from a US-based expert service that describes it as genuine. Fair enough?

It is a pretty obvious fake, especially the top perfs.

I am not a pro, but having collected stamps for many years, especially coils, I am in concert with the above Pros. Thanks for posting this all telling picture.

I noticed that a little over 25% of the Reviews on Stamp Smarter concern "nystamps" but for many years their ebay auctions have mentioned that they are APS "Life" members. This makes me wonder if the APS actually takes action or has no one ever reported them?

Ken,

No one has ever actually reported them because, I think, the APS BVP requires such overwhelming evidence before they will "convict" someone (meaning expel them....) that it deters interested people from tackling the complaint procedure.

I must say this, however, that they have been very responsive to our reports and a high percentage of the items we've reported have been removed by them, and the owner has been fairly receptive to our contacts, so I currently feel that if we had more people who could file reports, we would even have greater success, because the seller claims that he is willing to co-operate.

The one area where many sellers present the biggest challenge is when they claim that undisclosed faults can be seen in the pictures so they don't feel like they need to disclose them in a description. Either they fail to understand (or refuse.....) that not every viewer has the necessary skill to recognize certain faults. This seller, for example, seems(?) to get a lot of stamps with filled thins. And indeed, most people with good eyes can rather easily see them for what they are, but unskilled/inexperienced bidders may not, so it is critical that all faults be disclosed.

In their defense, these sellers claim that they list so much material that it just isn't practical to have to write out a word description for every item. And ebay apparently agrees with them as they won't act to remove stamps that have faults that can be seen in the pictures - thus demonstrating (IMO) as much ignorance as the sellers and failing to recognize that not all viewers have the same skill levels.

Their responsiveness may depend upon who or what group makes comment on their material.

Here is a link to a stamp I bought from them some months ago and returned.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/nystamps-US...em58b3be09cd br /

It looks nice in the image, and the description reads well, but in hand you discover that the stamp has fiber breaking creasing in the region of the face. The creasing is of the size and shape that would have been made by a spoon blade pair of stamp tongs. If you look carefully you can see a faint trace curving up from the mouth.

Now this defect was reported to them when I returned it, and that was more than three months ago, and yet it is offered with no note of the damage. Presumably, if this were reported through the Stamp Smarter vigilance group, then they might pay attention. Strength in numbers, I suppose.

All that notwithstanding, I have generally found them willing to make good on a mistake with a refund, and they make a lot of them. But buying a bad item and returning it still has a net cost to the buyer for the return shipping. That is the price for looking at the item in person. Unfortunately they are not always prompt in changing the listings, so there is a good chance you will have a return unless you spot it in the listing up front.

I am inclined toward the argument that if a seller has a track record for a high return rate, and they wish to continue to list items without adequate reference to faults, then they should be required to pay the return postage so that the buyer is not exposed to unnecessary and avoidable costs for choosing to buy from them. Fair is fair.

I am curious to know exactly WHY you did not report it on StampStarter? I have now done so and also contacted the seller. But without all honest people chipping in by reporting problematic or deceptive listings, the impact of StampSmarter will remain modest. In that regard, the comments made by ASDA President Mark Reasoner in the current issue of ASD&C is correct. And it was basically that the site is only useful to those who use it! While an obvious observation, it points up the fact that support by readers in the form of reports is critical for it to grow and become useful to a much bigger audience. So I urge readers to report deceptive listings. If every reader would only take 30 minutes per day to report problematic listings, the site would grow and prosper.

Right now ASDA is considering endorsing the site, but even without an "official" endorsement, Pres. Reasoner praised the site.

Please Essayk, when you see a deceptive listing, REPORT IT! Thank you.

Essayk,

According to ebay's "FALL 2014 Update": "Sellers will be responsible for return shipping when there's an issue with the item or the item wasn't as described."

A step in the right direction with regard to sloppy sellers.

This would most definitely be an improvement. Earlier this year I not only had to pay the return postage for a misdescribed item, but the seller didn't refund the original shipping charge. And it wasn't a "small" seller either.

Bill,

Thanks for the clarification. It's good to hear that even the big sellers like nystamps are responsive to Stamp Smarter reports, the statistics show many sellers with 100% responsiveness! To me this means Stamp Smarter is helping a lot of ebay bidders that have never even looked at the website by giving them more accurate ebay listings.

With all due respect, I don't feel I deserve to be publicly upbraided for a supposed dereliction of a duty to collectors. That is the taste left in my mouth from that post.

The stamp in question was bought and returned MONTHS before I even found out about StampStarter. I never gave it another thought, until the chance occurrence on the 17th that you spoke about the responsiveness of nystamps, and I happened to see that same 90c being offered for sale again. Since it was germane to the conversation I chose to speak about it here, where I am a member rather than on StampStarter where I am not.

Why not? Is that the rub?

I like the principles that StampStarter stands for, but I do not like the present level of vulnerability its members potentially face from vindictive enemies who eventually will come against you. Right now you are comparatively easy for the really bad guys to ignore. As you become more of a challenge, you will be challenged. It's just a matter of time. For this reason I applaud the possibility that the ASDA will adopt this group. A higher profile, national status will do much good. If that also helps give it a more solid legal backing, then worry warts like me will be happy to come on board. But not if you hold our reticence against us. We each have to act within the bounds of what we consider prudent.

Eventually I hope you will have the clout to bring stamps under the wing of the Hobby Protection Act (Pub.L. 93-167) which is being applied to situations in coin collecting that go far beyond the plain reading of the law itself. Intentional selling of altered/doctored stamps needs to be made properly criminal so that even ebay can be held legally accountable for tolerating it. But I digress.

BTW, I was delighted to hear that ebay is going to start holding sellers accountable for return fees on disputed items. Good move! I hope they uphold that and don't make it too easy for sellers to beg off. There is no substitute for responsible listing

Unfortunately, the flip side of responsible listing is irresponsible buyers who no matter what, will return stamps under the guise of "not as described" (even if untrue), foisting return postage charges on the seller. Since this automatically causes a loss, I fear many good sellers will leave ebay due to its latest return/refund policies.