Sizing Of Wf And 1923 Rotaries - Are They All Same Width?

I inherited a neat file card that has various stamps on it for measuring rotaries v. flat plates (and others for comparing hard and soft paper, but that's another story).

Affixed are: a 1c green WF to illustrate vertical rotary size; a 2c 1923 perf 10 Washington to illustrate horizontal rotary width; and a 2c WF to illustrate flat plate dimensions.

The problem is that the 2c 1923 p.10 Washington is waaaay wider than anything I have ever measured against it. (I usually use it to compare WF 1c/2c/3c to determine if they are rotary or flat plate.)

So, are WF rotaries (specifically horizontal rotaries) the same width as other issues (specifically the 2c of the 1923 issue)?

Because I currently have a p.11 1c green Washington that is not an offset (I checked with foil). It is clearly shorter than the 1c that serves as a guide to vertical rotaries -- therefore it is not a vertical rotary.

But it does seem perhaps a hair wider than the 2c WF that serves as a guide for flat plates.

BUT then (again) it is significantly narrower than the 1923 2c p.10 serving as the guide for a horizontal rotary.

So, do all WF/1920s rotaries have the same horizontal dimension? Or is a 1923 rotary significantly wider than a WF rotary?

And as a follow-up, if they do all have the same dimensions, are WF horizontal rotaries rare - because I have yet to find one (at least among my precancels, which is where I specialize these days). Needle in a haystack?

I hope that all makes sense! Thanks.

papers all dry differently is my response to that. they will not be 100% exacting.

Jan----
So, are WF rotaries (specifically horizontal rotaries) the same width as other issues (specifically the 2c of the 1923 issue)?

The short answer is no, not necessarily. The long answer is that both production and post-production factors effect the size. The size, as stated in reference sources is not an absolute. Paper grain in relationship to the paper orientation to the printing plate, moisture content of the paper, initial design size, inking, storage etc. has an effect of image size.

Are your reference stamps all 4th. bureau issues, or a combination of 3rd. and 4th.? You haven't given any specific measurements nor specific Scott numbers in your post. It could be helpful to know that to maybe clarify an answer a bit more. But, in any event, design sizes can vary. I'm sure others who post here with more knowledge about the production method will give you more detail that I've stated; and give you a good understanding about your inquiry.

With regards to WF, the majority of rotary press printings are coils (perforated 10). The harder areas start at around 538 on wards with changes with regards to rotary press coil/sheet waste printing and perforating occur.

As others have said, paper types and aging are some of the factors that make all stamps vary in size by a small amount.

Learning to differentiate a flat plate versus a rotary stamp by appearance is a bit difficult at first. Flat plate printing will usually appear darker. Rotaries will appear lighter and often have "softer" lines. Below is a flat plate printing on the right, and a rotary on the left:

You could always make a template if you want to get through them a bit faster? This page in general is a great help! http://1847usa.com/washfrank/printingmethods.htm

Here are four pictures of the two stamps. Up to now, I have always just noticed that the "horizontal plate" sample on my card is really wide. And left it at that. But with these two, especially the Denver WF 2c, they really do look a smidge wider than the WF that the card labels as Flat Plate -- but they are still waaay narrower than the "horizontal plate". So 2 questions:

a) are the precancels rotary or not? And
b) is there something "off" about the "horizontal plate" sample on my card?

In the first pic, the Flat Plate is the red. Is the green wide enough to be a rotary?

(A)
1c is flat plate
2c is flat plate
Both are flat plate because the horizontal lines are thick.

(B)
Your horizontal rotary seems perfectly fine.

(C)
The 1c is nearly wide enough to be a rotary, but isn't because of the line appearance.


Different sizes of both horizontal and rotary prints occur. Take a look at http://1847usa.com/1908WashingtonIdentifier.htm and you'll see that 543 is listed as 22.5+ mm tall. 542 is listed as 22.75 mm tall.

Your "Horizontal Rotary" example is a 599 and is listed as 19.75 x 22.25. It is both wider and taller than most "horizontal" rotary types and isn't the best choice as a reference for most Scott #s.

Also, size can vary in any catalog number, comparing two stamps for size isn't always right.

I_Love_Stamps link shows how to make a cutout using a flat plate stamp. That might be a bit quicker and easier to use than your reference card.

If the suspect stamp is larger in either direction, then determine if it is flat or rotary print. Some rotary prints do have the appearance of flat prints. If the difference isn't obvious, then measure it with an accurate ruler with 0.1 mm graduations.

Compare your measurements with 1847.com for the types that it may possibly be. If it is large enough to fit one of the types and it is definitely a rotary print, then you have probably identified it correctly.

If any of those aspects make is so you don't know what it is with 99% certainty, then let out a large sigh. Breath deeply and slowly. Once relaxed, post a scan of it here on the forum and we'd be glad to help. :)

In summary you'd probably be better off making a cutout using a known, cheap, flat plate stamp.

Also, it appears that your "horizontal example" is a 599A. Can you post a pic of just that stamp?

Thank you very much, HDC! Greatly appreciate the help in getting these two off my desk into their rightful places. And wouldn't it be funny if the "cheap stamp" on my cheat card were a 599A!

Here's the enlargement:

You're welcome.

Your image is a bit small, but it does look like it's a 599A. So there's an added bonus.

Probability is a funny thing.

Does appear to be a #599. Good for you! W/Fs take a lot of study to learn the, in may cases, minute differences. I've been at it 20+ years and its still at times challenging. Flat plate issues will most always have ink off-set on the back--ink still wet on a sheet transferring to the back side of the next sheet stacked on top of the sheet with the still wet ink. Rotary stamps will not show this off-set ink because of the different printing process.

Once again, my scanner defeats me. I don't think I can enlarge the image either during scanning or after (which would probably just make it fuzzy anyway). But I do have a number of 634A, and this looks a lot like them. Thanks again.

Al E. Gator, great point that I didn't include.

1847.com is once again a good resource for determining type I and II of this series. Unfortunately, it isn't linked on the home page or on the 1922 series page:

http://www.1847usa.com/1922/634vs634A.htm