Newbie Grill Question. What If It's 12 X 18 Points?

It could, indeed... it's interesting to note that there are clearly
two half rows, top and bottom, and a very faint partial row in the
lower right... all indications of poor burnishing converting a D
roller to E...

However, as far as the "Z Grill - Fooling" goes, the E clearly has
vertical ridges, versus horizontal for the Z...

Question for the experts...

Please clarify points up and points down relative to 'male/female'
grilling definitions...

thank you...

Randall

By no means an expert on grills, but I did re-read Rileysan's thread "Possible US 83 (C Grill)" this morning. The best explanation is on the 2nd page. Between Bill Weiss's explanation and essayk's photographs it is clear that a male grill points are facing up out of the stamp, and the female is the oppisite.

https://goscf.com/t/41640&whichpage=1

Thank you for that discussion reference...

Bill Weiss stated...




This is where I am *clearly* confused... is it possible to be
"clearly-confused" (smiling)...

Wikipedia states the following...

A Grill - overall (first experimental grill)
C Grill - points up, 16-17 x 18-21 points (second experimental)
Z Grill - points down, points with horizontal ridges, 13-14 x 17-18
points
D Grill - points down, vertical ridges, 15 x 17-18 points
E Grill - points down, vertical or "X" ridges, 14 x 15-17 points
F Grill - points down, vertical or "X" ridges, 11-12 x 15-17 points
B Grill - points up, "X" ridges, 22 x 18 points
G Grill - points down, vertical ridges, 12 x 11-11.5 points
H Grill - points down, vertical ridges, 11-13 x 14-16 points
I Grill - points down, vertical ridges, 10-11 x 10-13 points
J Grill - points down, vertical ridges, 9-10 x 12 points[4]

I was always under the impression (as a grill-neophyte) that points up
meant precisely what Bill stated... pointing up from the face of the
stamp...

If that's the case, please refer above to the Z-grill definition...
it states "points down", which would (and should) indicate the points
on the reverse of the stamp, and the face of the stamp being 'female'...

This creates quite a dilemma for me, personally, given the 85B which
I have posted is CLEARLY points up, and defies the Z-grill definition,
yet, Bill Weiss certified the stamp for me as 85B. So, if Bill was
correct, which I truly believe he is, as I revere his expertise, then
is it in the realm of possibility Wikipedia (and potentially other
publications) may possibly be incorrect ?

There are "inverted" grills that are known and uncommon. This could account for your stamp. There's some info about it in "The United States Postage Stamps of the 19th Century" Volume II by Lester G. Brookman. Give me a few and I'll see if I can find a quote.

This link has a likely explanation. Essayk demonstrates how grills can appear up or down depending on the light orientation when taking an image. https://goscf.com/t/41640&whichpage=2#359836 "So the principle is this, for illuminating grills, use an off axis light source that approaches the subject from its side relative to a view of the image when upright." For scanning this would mean orienting it sideways to the direction of travel of the optical head.

The less likely explanation is an inverted grill. I selected two paragraphs from Brookman:




The theories may have changed since the above was published in 1966.

Heres that Brookman statement; End of chapter XIV




GRILL VARIETIES AND THE STAMPS ON WHICH THEY ARE KNOW TO EXIST
End Roller Grills (Marginal Grills) )-#94, 87, 114, 117, 134, 136, 137, 138, 139,
140, 143, 158, 159, 179

Double Grills-#83, 85b, 86, 87, 88, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101,
112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120 . 121, 134, 135, 136, 137, 141.

Split Grills-#86, 87, 88, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 99. 100, 112, 113, 114,
115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 134, 135, 136, 137, 141.

Triple Grills-#87, 88, 94, 114.

Quadruple Split Grills-#94, 96, 98, 113, 114, 115, 134, 135, 136, 137.

Inverted Grills-A few stamps are known with the grill impressed thru the paper
in the opposite to the normal direction and these are called "Inverted grills."
They are rarely found and the only ones we have seen are a pair with the "E"
grill discovered by the author, and a copy with the "F" grill.

DNA and Phil... thank you both for the detailed information you have provided...
the data definitely sheds quite a bit more light upon the varieties,
reasons the inversions exist. Personally, I always thought it was
"written in stone" (so to speak) that grills were always either points
up or down, relative to their respective families... inversions are a
phenomena I wouldn't have ever given any thought to, as up until your
data you have provided, I had no idea they existed...

I can state beyond the shadow of any doubt, it's not a lighting issue,
as I have the physical stamp (here), and it's positively points up, so
it's a Z grill inversion... obverse is male and reverse is female...

I can't say with any certainty if it was an assumption on Bill's part
that I knew I had an inversion, or, if it was just a pure oversight on
his part, as he might have only been looking to confirm the horizontal
ridges as a first level of confirmation of a Z, then the balance of
examination for the rest of the detail... (faults, etc)...

Of course, I'm quite pleased to own the stamp, most especially with
Bill Weiss' blessing... the inversion adds a little more 'spice' to
it's uniqueness... thanks again, guys...

Randall

You're welcome and I thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. I wonder if there is a census as to the number of inverted grills currently known of.

I know of 1!

Phil, you are now the official inverted grill census maker. Keep up the good work

disi, I wonder if it's possible that your stamp is the sibling of the one mentioned in the second paragraph of Brookman that I quoted. There should have been at least a few that were not on the fold and were just past it. If that one made it into circulation, then it's neighbors with no obvious anomaly would have also passed inspection.

DNA... it's quite possible it's a sibling... given there's no mention
of it in the data which you provided, specifically...

I've emailed Bill Weiss to review this thread and post, and, if need
be, I'll send the stamp to him again for further study...

Randall,

I must admit that I am now confused too. If your stamp has the horizontal grill points showing clearly on the back, which as I recall, it does, then it MUST be a female grill, and your observation that the points are "up" (a male grill) has to be wrong. I do not recall if your grill has any graphite on it? But if so, the horizontal points should show on the back clearly. I would be happy to re-examine it (free of charge) in order to try to solve this mystery. The only other possibility I can think of is that your grill has NO graphite on it and when I studied the back of the stamp I somehow confused the points being on the back when (as you are claiming) they are on the front. So feel free to send it back. You just need to pay for return shipping and insurance that you might want, but if you send it by either Registered or Express, it's covered by my insurance. I suggest flat rate express both ways, which is $20. each way.

Hi, Bill... thank you kindly for chiming in...

I must admit... either these old eyes are seeing things
wrong and being translated backwards in this old brain,
or the stamp is as I see it... the scans are from flatbed
scanner at 1200dpi... I can email you larger scans if you
would like...

There's no graphite on it, which, given it's unused OG,
I'd doubt you would have used graphite without having
first consulted me...

The scan in this thread is the current, and the reverse
of the stamp certainly looks 'female' and the obverse
definitely appears 'male'... so, I guess we are in a
state of mystery for the time being...

Aside from the above, in your mind and experience-would
you presume an 85B could exist with an inverted grill?

Randall

You are right - I never would have put graphite on an unused OG stamp without consulting the owner. But maybe it's MY old eyes that are failing but your scans of the stamp CLEARLY show a female grill, with the points standing up on the BACK of the stamp. But I'm still willing to look at it again, or, if you prefer, you are welcome to send it to a different expert service to confirm or contradict my opinion.

If you're seeing female on the face and points on the back,
that means I really need to check this again...

Unfortunately, I don't have a magnifier strong enough to see
it LIVE... I've been doing all of my observations on this stamp
vis a vis my scans...

I'll pick one up tomorrow and try to unravel this and report back...