Possibly A Rough 103?

Historical, thank you so much for those kind words. I am thankful for all help I receive here as you mentioned. I do feel that there are some here that can be a little sharp with there responses but I do understand. I am trying as much as possible not to waste anyones time but it really helps me learn getting opinions from many different angles. As someone previously mentioned, some times the catalogues can be kind of vague. Slowly but surely I'm absorbing a lot of info. Thanks again to everyone here for your input and patience.

Words on the printed page can't convey the intentions of the speaker the same as being in person. When you are face to face with someone, you can make a negative comment and with the right body language it comes off as a joke. not so with words on a page.
This is a two way street. Try not so see negativeness when none was intended and when writing, choose your words very carefully and try to put yourself in the place of your intended reader.

I must be missing something, but would someone please point out to me something that was said to maverickx that was harsh or inappropriate? It looks pretty straight up to me.

HDNAC, Re-reading this thread, I find it civil and helpful, but there are other threads to which your comments apply. True, it is hard to convey tone in a thread where replies are often short – and yes sometimes rude or condescending. I'll go out on the limb a bit also about the Board, in general. Sorry if this hijacks the original thread to ID a stamp.

There are many *other* threads started by beginners seeking basic information where the "regulars" fall over each other competing to make a reply post whether they know anything or not, instead of waiting for the more knowledgeable members to reply. This "I must answer first" syndrome is especially noticeable on US grill questions. One inquiry last week had an early reply asking for a better scan, yet instead of the members waiting for the new image, many speculative replies were posted, which (after a better image was posted) really look silly and amateur. There are some members who must reply to every topic.

A lot of early thread replies seem quick to condemn items as fake or altered, when the responders have no idea what they are talking about – and it takes more replies from the true students of that particular subject to get back to the truth. Separating the wheat from the chaff can be laborious.

Level of expertise and experience: It is often hard to gauge the level of knowledge of a new poster or the responder. How basic should an answer be? Similarly, a new member would have no idea which answer to trust/believe since most replies do not start with "I have been a student of this issue for 15+ years and find your stamp to be #xx, and here is how you can identify them yourself in the future, etc."

Rereading this thread, an early answer could have been: "Welcome to the board! Without a grill as you state, your 2 cent Jackson is either a 73 (a very large production run) or a 103 (a special printing done in very small quantity). The main way to differentiate these 2 stamps is the dies. Die 1, used for the production run has …, Die 3 has …, etc. So it appears you have a 73." It answers their ID question AND tells them how to do it themselves.

Short answers: How often do you see these short comments? "Your stamp is reperfed" without stating which side/s. Or "That's a fake coil", without any details as to why. Thus a slightly longer answer, which teaches them how to fish, rather than just giving them a fish, is so much better AND gives them higher confidence in the quality of the answer. A kinder and gentler Board.

John Becker - That is an excellent post IMO. Thank you!







*Typos corrected......

I have to agree with EssayK. I see nothing whatsoever in the first page of this thread that is negative or harsh. For that reason I think it was inappropriately negative to claim the opposite. John Becker's points are, of course, well taken as general principle but are replying to a phantom claim.

Yes, by all means let's be nice on SCF and pat ourselves on the back for not being like that other forum. But let's not invent non-niceness where it does not exist. To do so is not nice to those who have not been non-nice.

Well said, John Becker. Permit me to add one more dimension.

When people are making inquiries about stamps with a catalog value of $15000, we are doing them a disservice if we don't start right off recommending that they get a certificate for it. In the case of the stamp in this thread, Clark pointed to several features which precluded the possibility the subject stamp could be an official reprint. However, that presumes that the photo is clear enough, or large enough to show the details well, and that the inquirer is able to understand the explanation well enough to see the necessary features, and that s/he is confident enough in their own view to dismiss the possibility in a final way. That is a lot of assuming. In the end it is better to say of such an item, if you think it could be X send it out for a cert.

I have items in my possession that I think have certain features which make them significant in some way. I have been a student of them for a long time. Nonetheless, I would never go public with them unless and until I had agreement from a certification committee. Some things one must be SURE about. The opinion of an online group that is not able to physically examine the material, and works only off of images, has some merit a good deal of the time. But there is no substitute for a real examination of the stamp by knowledgeable experts.

I hope no one here takes offense at that. Just calling it as I see it.

While I agree with essayk in a general way, I totally disagree with the idea that a poster showing a stamp that is obviously NOT what he hopes it to be, should consider sending it for certification (which costs money...). Why should we advise somebody to go ahead and spend money for something he obviously doesn't need? While it is true that stamp identification only from a picture (no matter how good the picture might be) can be a problematic excercise, some stamps are "easy" to pass judgement on. The one that started this thread is exactly such a stamp. As Clark said, there is no reason whatsoever to think that stamp is an 1875 reissue. We can plainly see enough of the design details, the paper, the margins, etc to IMMEDIATELY rule out #103 as a possibility, so saying that it would be a disservice to the original poster if you don't advise him to send it away for expert opinions, in fact, in this case, the diservice is that he WAS advised to do that in my opinion. And you clearly can understand that whenever I advise someone NOT to seek certification, I am potentially hurting myself financially, so you can see how strongly I feel about this. Telling someone to spend money for certification as a first response is a disservice.

It's okay to disagree on this, Bill. Of course if the cert costs 5% of $15000 [=$750] plus various fees that is a bit different than the $5 quickie.

Our difference of opinion in this case has less to do with an opinion about stamps as in how people should be treated. The average Joe collector has a very different set of feelings about finding a $500 stamp and one he thinks might be worth $15000. Getting a $5 quick opinion is roughly twice as much as it costs to buy a Powerball ticket, but the motivation for buying either may be about the same. If a person is coming from that place, no amount of oohing and aahing over online pictures is going to lay the subject to rest. That's like my wife telling me "we didn't win." Yeah, probably true; so why do I still want to see for myself? The more that I WANT something to be right, the more I need to be SHOWN that it's wrong.

I choose to start with the assumption that there are complex feelings to be dealt with first. If not, we'll know soon enough, and then other kinds of reason may be applied. But telling him to get a cert, gives me permission to show why I think he really doesn't need to, with the understanding that he will do whatever suits him best.

With all due respect essayk, your explanation sounds to me like phychobabble.

Sorry to hear you feel that way, Bill. Let me suggest, though, that any further comments on this intended for me you should probably message to me directly and keep it off the list. Meanwhile we wait to hear from those who redirected the thread in the first place - with apologies for the interruption.

Those??
I was just replying with my thoughts. Didn't mean to hijack.

As one of the hijackers, I'll add my 2 cents about certs. I believe in responses that "Keep it Simple". Thus the most effective Board Member response is to first answer their direct question, which is usually to identify their stamp. THEN once the identity is fairly well established, if the identity warrants, to explain the merits of seeking a certificate or not. Introducing the tangent of getting a cert before the identity is even determined tends to complicate and dilute the discussion. It puts the cart before the horse. Getting a cert for a damaged 73 is seldom necessary.

I understand the importance of certificates, but I suspect many of the " inherited dad's collection" types have no idea how certs work in philately. I wonder if a, "Should I Get a Certificate?" might be a good thread to develop to point such people to.

I don't believe that this thread has been "hijacked". The question asked by this thread had been answered early and definitively by two expertisers. One of the most definitive voices of this subforum felt that there was no need for further discussion of the topic. The thread creator himself made concessionary statements twice that he was satisfied with the replies given.

Widening of discussion inside of threads is to be expected when the subforum provides no stickies and non-stamp related discussions are discouraged. We have the option of purpose made subforums to discuss such topics but they are infrequently utilized and are not going to be seen by the majority of this subforum's contributors due to the extra effort required to check these virtual ghost towns.

The apparent tone of the replies in this thread are for the most part appropriate. Only one sarcastic comment was made, but it also included even more evidence to support their opinion. Another posted multiple times in a manner that created doubt which they only seem to do with more junior students. The pattern of such replies across multiple posts do not appear to me as instructional in any way.

After my "hijacking": "If a person is coming from that place, no amount of oohing and aahing over online pictures is going to lay the subject to rest." The exact opposite occurred by concessionary statements twice by the original poster.

"But telling him to get a cert, gives me permission to show why I think he really doesn't need to, with the understanding that he will do whatever suits him best." This reply didn't "show why I think he really doesn't need to" in any direct manner. It didn't offer any opinion of the stamp's possibility of being what the original poster questioned at all.

There is always the issue of perceiving the tone of posts and replies incorrectly. There is also the issue of how many posters are derided for wondering if they have rarities, regardless of innocent objective questions. I observed this happening frequently in various threads lately and the cumulative effect prompted my display of being upset. Are any by themselves egregious? No, but I want to try my best to prevent the escalation of the trend. I want to promote a positive environment here and I felt it necessary to bring this issue to light.

John Becker, I agree that your post is excellent. Other posters also provided valid insight. It highlights issues of concern and provides great examples of how to best deal with them. I agree that we have "regulars" that can at times be a distraction from helping the original poster. However this is a community and not a board where only experts can comment, nor where non-experts cannnot provide accurate answers. Overall, it can be frustrating at times but does promote the education of all by various means. The atmosphere resembles a classroom where students of various levels heavily participate. Regardless of a few wanting to show off or gain attention, the end goal is eventually reached where we all learn, despite any annoyances.

In the end, I don't think that any one person is disruptive to the point of needing to be reprimanded. We're all human after all and not always perfect. We are a community of stamp collectors that produces amazing discussions of topics that no set of experts could be expected to thoroughly discuss unless we had a large budget to employ them to do so. At times I believe that this community can provide information that exceeds what any panel of experts could produce. I am continuously amazed at how this community is so helpful to each other including our new members. Sometimes the stereotype of novice collectors can create an atmosphere that turns some away. I just want to promote an atmosphere where everyone with good intentions is encouraged to learn. This happens the majority of the time. However, our human nature sometimes gets in the way of the benefits of altruism.

I read almost all the comments on posts here daily.
Just a 'lurker' for the most part.
And followed all 29 comments following the appearance of the Blackjack right down to Historical's last paragraph:

In the end, I don't think that any one person is disruptive to the point of needing to be reprimanded. We're all human after all and not always perfect. We are a community of stamp collectors that produces amazing discussions of topics that no set of experts could be expected to thoroughly discuss unless we had a large budget to employ them to do so. At times I believe that this community can provide information that exceeds what any panel of experts could produce. I am continuously amazed at how this community is so helpful to each other including our new members. Sometimes the stereotype of novice collectors can create an atmosphere that turns some away. I just want to promote an atmosphere where everyone with good intentions is encouraged to learn. This happens the majority of the time. However, our human nature sometimes gets in the way of the benefits of altruism.

A superb summary, that applies to most of the topics that have appeared in which some doubts, questions, or differing opinions were discussed.
Again: a superb summary. Thanks.