491 - Confirmation Please

Type II-#491 or Type III-#492? There is no watermark visible.

Is there a consensus of which type that it is? What affected your decision? Other than the number of lines in the ribbon ends, what areas did you use to make the identification? Thanks.

If no watermark, it could be 491... (pending cert verification)

It cannot be a 492, it isn't a Type III

Type III has 3 lines in the second fold of the right ribbon
and 2 lines in the first fold of the left...

Upon close examination, however, it could be a trimmed stamp...
the top and bottom edges are noticably 'rough' as well as
what appears to be perf hole remnant evidence at the top edge...
which means it could be a trimmed Flat Plat 463, so you'll also
need to verify the stamp is a Rotary Press...

Viewing the larger image, it appears the third line of the right
ribbon might have been scraped away... it appears scraped, and
too 'white' where the 3rd line would be...

Thanks disi. It is definitely a "wide" horizontal rotary printed stamp. I should have specifically asked for identification using areas other than the number of lines in the ribbon ends.

It looks to be Type II, though there is some noise in the scan that places some spots of color near where the Type III ribbon line would be. However, I see no indication of cross hatching in the border so I'm confident it's a Type II. I also like the shade and complexion as far as it being a #491. I have found the best luck with determining unwatermarked rotary coils by the number and type of inclusions. Could you provide a scan of the back?

You're quite welcomed...

I have to say, though... given all of the 491
characteristics vs the 492, it could just be
an overall rough copy... all of the other 491
indicators are right, including all of the ribbon
characteristics, laurel leaf balls, mouth and
eyebrow... the 491 is a weaker impression than
is the 492, so, I'd say there's a better chance
it's a 491, than an altered stamp...

I'd pack it up and send it to Bill Weiss...

Hey Tipzi... great to see you... welcome back !

Thanks, disi. I was doing yard work when the sky fell in, so I checked the board and found some cool topics.

We missed you in the 500 discussion last week...

Hello Tipzi, I've heard many compliments about you. Here is the reverse. I can try to remove more dust and detritus if it would help:



This is the best that my scanner can do for detailing the ribbon ends. It is possible that the right hand one may have been scraped away, but the left one being scraped away doesn't seem possible unless they also did a great job of adding in the cancel:






That is a very interesting observation that I have never heard of before. Do you mind elaborating? Thanks.

I've noticed over the years that #491 has a yellowish paper with inclusions such as grey-brown translucent specks and straw-like specks, even things looking like cardboard. It is an inferior paper, so inferior that trying to watermark it would have destroyed it so the watermarking was discontinued. When the paper has that "look", without ever dipping it I can send it in for a cert and get it opined as a #491 at least 4 out of 5 times. As difficult as searching for a watermark can be, why bother if there's a reliable work-around?

I like the pair of inclusions left of center and I like the overall texture and tone of the paper, as well as the pale, pink look of the impression. Also, this stamp was mechanically affixed by a machine that had been built for or adjusted to cut rotary coils. I see a lot of #491's butchered by affixing machines.

Tipzi, thanks for the elaboration. I'm scanning the backside of various issues in this series to create an image that compares paper appearance to post tomorrow. Your observations intrigue me and I'm now looking for identifiable patterns. Thanks again for your evaluation of my stamp.