Somebody Please Help Identify Stamp.

I have counted points, verified measurements an verified points up or down and I continue to come up with a b grill stamp. 18x22 points. No matter how I cut it or count them I keep coming up the same so can someone please tell me what I am missing. Thanks in advance!

I'm confused. Why is the stamp in that color? Assuming the stamp is Scott design A25, the only major colors listed are: pink, lake, scarlet, rose, red, and brown red. Even the essay is in brown rose.

Did you do some manipulation of the scan? What am I missing here?

I'm sorry I used the image app and turned it red to show points clearer I'll upload different picture.

The obverse picture is original color and in touched from any application. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

1. The stamp is rotated from pic 1 to pic 2, so we need to be clear that this grill is "sideways" oriented on the stamp. It is wider than it is tall.

2. If we think and report in terms of the actual orientation on the stamp and not the pics, then my counting of the points from the reverse side, which I have done several times now, gives me a count of 22x19. The 19th row is not as complete or fully struck as the others, and may be a "half" row.

3. If my interpretation of the two images is correct, then the points of this grill appear to stand up from the surface on the reverse, and to point down into the surface on the obverse. If so, then this appears to be a "points down" grill. That is opposite the orientation for a "B" grill.

4. It is at least theoretically possible that a points down grill with these dimensions could be the result of grill doubling by either a points down C or D grill, in which the sheet had slightly shifted sideways between impressions so that some of the points from the second impression aligned precisely on some of the points from the first impression and some extended the width. (possible but improbable - don't get your hopes up).

To rule out #4 you would need to submit the grill to the PF (specifically) and ask them to verify it as a "points down C" or "D" double grill. The initial fee would be lower than asking them to verify a B grill, but that won't stop them from telling you exactly what you have. If they were to certify it as a B-grill, the cert will cost you $1000 despite the torn corner. As a preliminary to that step you might wish to submit the item first to Bill Weiss with instructions to look specifically for evidence of doubling. If he determines that it is in fact a "points up" grill or that it is a double grill, he might then recommend getting a PF cert.

FWIW based on my count of 19 and what I see as a points down orientation, I am inclined to lean toward a double grill if the points are properly shaped, or else to call it a fake grill if they are not.

EDIT: I should have mentioned that as I look at the obverse image, the points appear to have a vertical orientation (relative to the top of the stamp) and so I rule out the possibility of a doubled Z-grill. That is how this looks to me in these pics.

I knew I was missing something thanks for your input, what messed me up was the measurements and everything being on the money. I have to disagree with you, I only count 18 x 22. I count from the middle area where less damage is but I could be wrong. I. On an iPad though so its a little easier for me to count. Points are definitely wrong though. Could a double grill line up so perfectly. I'm confused on that, I'll have to do a little more research. I thought I had done enough research on grills not to ask simple questions but I see that's not the case. I definitely appreciate your response, 1 last this I'm not familiar with Bill Weiss? Could you point me in the right direction.

That's why you're missing the last row, the topmost row in image #2. Start at the left edge and trace the top row across and you will see that the points fade out in the middle and come back at the ends.

Count upward from the bottom a few points from the left edge, and again a few points from the right edge. Then count down from the top in those same regions. It's best to count a few ways and keep counting until you get a consistent (i.e. understandable) result. If the numbers consistently don't match up with one another, what does that mean?

I am viewing your images on a 24" screen in a two screen display, so generally detail is not a problem unless the image itself doesn't have it.

As for who Bill Weiss is, I have addressed that for you in your other thread where he is participating.

Ok I just counted 19, I contact bill and get an idea from him. Thanks for your help. I would've kept missing that.

All of the experiential grills for the 3c A25 design are found only in the dull rose shade. This one looks faded to me from my phone screen.

And the rows don't look like they are lined up in straight lines....especially in the middle of the stamp.

I'm guessing this one is a fake grill. Not an expert here by any means....
hope it's not a fake, Ray