Classic US Stamps Certified By Alan Miller?

Incorrect....your opinion does matter....

I would not venture that the "next" owner would get
a "opinion" based from the original cert.
Who knows if the "purchaser" damaged the stamp
while during his ownership.

[quoteI have been back collecting long enough to know that collectors of US classics trust a select group of expertizers. The list as I know it includes PF, APEX, Bill Weiss, PSE, and maybe PSAG?
][/quote]

As I see it, the problem with the disclaimer on the old AM certs is not that he doesn't guarantee the condition, but rather that there is a big contradiction between what he says in the disclaimer versus the description of the stamp. The disclaimer says "Unless specifically mentioned, we do not attest to the quality of the items submitted". Fair enough. But then how can the description state "Genuine in all respects"? That implies that the item in question, is 100% sound, otherwise it would be inappropriate to use the words "in all respects" wouldn't it?

There are other "oldtime" certs floating around the hobby (Pinchot, Stolow) which essentially are not expert opinions of the condition of the items but rather are glorified Identifications. Folks who submit items to real recognized expert services should be entitled not only to a correct identification of the items submitted but also a complete description of the condition, carefully noting faults or alterations found during the careful examination of the items. That is, IMO, 75% of the value of third party expertizing - verifying the condition. Identification is a relatively simple part of the job unless there are skillful design alterations.

And by the way, most third party expert services do not "guarantee" the condition of the items because of the possibility that the condition has changed from the time of expertizing. Also because expertizers are human and do make ocassional mistakes. The only expert service that includes a guarantee for condition is APEX and there are disclaimers to the basic guarantee.

I would read the opinion to mean that the stamp, its gum (if present), its cancel (if present), and its perfs all are genuine, and there are no repairs, but that no opinion is given as to faults or centering ("condition"). I feel that "condition" as mentioned in the disclaimer is distinct from "genuineness". Based on this, as a collector, I would have no problems with this cert other than it might not be complete enough for my purposes.

As to the rest of this thread, some facts seem to be missing, or else everyone else is far more skilled at making inferences than me. First, the OP says that another seller is offering this item with an AM cert. While it is true that AM is presently a dealer, I see no evidence that this item was "self-certed" in the pejorative manner that others have implied. It could have been submitted to AM by the owner, certified by AM, and returned to the owner. There is no evidence that AM bought the item on his own account, then did the cert for himself, then resold it.

Second, Clark appears to assume that the item shown in the cert image has a purported White Horse Beach, MA cancel. I find the image resolution too poor to make that determination. I presume there is sufficient evidence in the image for him or others, more skilled, to conclude that the item purports to bear that cancel.

These things may be obvious to others, but since we are talking about a living person with an active livelihood here, we ought to be careful that the facts are straight.

His refund policy is in the fine print at the bottom: not a guarantee, not financially responsible.

Certified as correctly cataloged. Exciting!

It seems to me that a stamp can be 'GENUINE' and also suffer a thin, a hinge remain, a crease, even a repair; as much as The Condition Craze is about as appealing to me as, say, the game of golf, I am sympathetic to the claim that, to be useful, a certification should list these detractions, as well as enhancements (re-gumming, washed cancels, et al), even if they are only true to the date of the certification.

Cheers,

/s/ ikeyPikey

Kevin,
It is night and day in my opinion. Bill has been an expertizer for many years and the vast majority of his certs are for people other than himself. Bill can ring in but I would estimate that less than 1% of his certs have ever wandered back to material he has owned. This is very different then a person who simply starts a cert business as a marketing scheme to sell more of their material on ebay. Bill's reputation far exceeds being criticized for occasionally selling a cert stamp online. You can make of it whatever you want, it appears that you have an axe to grind.
Don

Just to clarify, Alan Miller advertises his expertising service on his website and charges a percentage of an amount based on value. He is not only using these certs to identify stamps for sale.

I agree with Bill, the part of the disclaimer that gets me is about describing the condition of the stamp. Isnt that a standard for expertizers, at least in the last 25 years or so?

There are plenty of gray areas in our hobby open to debate. I didnt mean to stir up any hard feelings. Having recently started collecting again, I dont know all of the well respected and highly thought of "personalities" in our hobby.

The message should be to avoid any dealer who "self certs" stamps. I have a cert from a dealer, now out of business, contradicted with a Warning Cert from the Philatelic Foundation. I don't have time now to post any images. This particular seller stated that the cert had no value without the original sales slip. This is no different than avoiding ebay sellers who offer perf 12 coils without certificates. If the seller cannot be trusted to avoid offering questionable items, why have any trust? Why trust any seller who "self certs"?

I did not indicate that the cancel on the $5 Columbian was a White Horse Beach, Mass cancel. It may be, that is not my area of expertise. I would say that a cancel so conveniently and lightly struck on one edge of a high value stamp should be looked at carefully. It should be noted that no gum prices are now sometimes less than legitimately used prices.

Clark

"... the vast majority of his certs are for ... himself."

"... a person who simply starts a cert business as a marketing scheme to sell more of their material on ebay."

Don, are you simply trying to distinguish Bill from all others, or are you also implying that Alan Miller does this? I'm not trying to be difficult, but these are serious statements that can affect a reputation and ongoing business, and these posts are easily misinterpreted so I'd like to have clarity and/or know how they are substantiated.

Chris

If that is CORRECT....
I am against that.

Just looked at his website....
Looks like he has a expertizing servive....
What is different from Weiss Expertising???

They are the same.....

Kevin, it is correct except I stated he charges a percentage of value. Its actually a flat rate based on value. Here is how he advertises on his site.

"We expertize most United States Stamps from #1 to Back of Book.
Most stamps usually returned within 1-7 days.
Professional certificates issued for each stamp with color copy of the stamp. (See Example Below)
25 year member of the American Philatelic Society.
20 year member of the American Stamp Dealers Association.
We have done over 15,000 certificates to date."




Kevin, this is more or less my original question. I know Bill's experience and background, as well as the respect he has within the collecting community. Well, not all of it apparently. :) I trust Bill Weiss. I dont know anything about Alan Miller other than what is on his website. I was wondering if he has any experience as an expertizer with one of the big names, or any other experience before venturing out on his own. So far no one here has stated that they use his services or even know much about him.

Don,
You know everything.
Alan Miller has NEVER sold anything on ebay.

You need FACTS before you state incorrect info.

edited for spelling error...now corrected

But that is the whole point of submitting an item to a third party expert service - to get a "complete" description. All faults must be noted, as should alterations, regumming, reperfing, repairs, etc. Gum condition, hinging (or not), genuiness of the cancel, etc.

But I also agree with you that there is no evidence that this stamp wasn't submitted to AM for his third-party opinion and posters should be careful, without supportive evidence, to not demean him. In fact, I have known him for 25+ years. He's a very competent and knowledgeable dealer. While it is true there have been "rumors" about his connection to some of the things noted here, as far as I know, they have never been "proven". And while I can't speak for him, my guess is that he would probably admit to selling some of his self-certed items and might (rightfully) argue that he is no different than Jay Smith who freely admits to self-certing his own material. And, as I recall, the last time we discussed this subject here on the SCF, the majority of posters seemed to agree that what Jay Smith was doing is OK. Or is my memory flawed?......

I realize the potential conflict of interest, but personally I've got no problem with people like Bill Weiss and Jay Smith selling their own certed items. Just speaking about those two gentlemen in particular, their reputations are essentially their livelihoods. If it were found that they were certing bogus items and then selling them, both their certing and selling businesses would dry up in a hurry.

His cert bears a striking resemblance to a PF cert; his model perhaps? Does he charge for these or expertize material for a fee for others? What Miller is offering looks to me like an advertising gimmick. But when he is the seller, that disclaimer, while it is standard for the PF, might be construed as an end run around giving a refund. Does anyone here have any experience with trying to get a refund from him?

I would not want to be a customer until I got clear about all of that.