Possible 3c Z Grill - SD Harris Notation On Back

I'm looking for opinions on the stamp shown below. It's probably a good candidate to get expertized but I just haven't gotten around to it yet. The scans make it hard to see but the size and number of points of the grill point to a Z grill (No. 85c). It's hard to discern whether the points have horizontal ridges or not. Another interesting thing about this stamp is the pencil notation on the back stating "Z grill, S.D. Harris" - I've found a minor amount of information on the web about S.D. Harris but nothing to confirm whether this is in fact his notation or not. Any guesses? Is it a Z grill? Something else? A fake? Any input is appreciated. Thanks!
-Jeff

I'm not sure "who" S.D. Harris" was but here is an offering, with "cert", from Mr. William Weiss showing a "Z"Grill. Mr. Harris must have known his grills well enough to pass Mr. Weiss' approval.

http://www.garyposnerinc.com/product_p/123973.htm


Mr. Weiss is a regular contributor to SCF. He may know more about the background of Mr. Harris. Good Luck!

The closest may be H.E. Harris & Company. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ellis_Harris

On your stamp I count 14x18 points and they appear to be horizontal. (Start at the bottom and count up the third column from the right.} The points at top and bottom, when you look at the whole row, look too much like the other points for me to make the distinction HisDNA is making. This looks like an authentic Z grill from what I am seeing.

Here is a link to a pdf from the Nov 2006 issue of the Vermont Philatelisst that will tell you more than you wanted to know about Sidney D. Harris:

http://www.vermontps.org/publications/0611_VP.pdf

Practically the entire issue is devoted to remembrance of him, including comments by his son Lowell, despite the fact that Sid Harris had died 30 years earlier. The bio piece was written by another of his sons, Roger.

Hello ak_stamp and welcome to the forum! It's difficult to tell due to the scan, but this is what I see:



It seems to have 14 columns and 16 rows. The top and bottom rows appear to be "partial" rows which are not counted. Here's an example that has easy to see points:



A better scan would be needed to know for certain.

Sidney D Harris was a prominent Vermont dealer.

http://www.vermontps.org/publications/0611_VP.pdf

Ryan, that's an incredibly helpful visual explanation

Jenny2U,
Thanks, we now have an image that anyone can post to help future submitters.

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essayk,
As usual, you've got me thinking. The top and bottom rows appear to me to be partial ones. However, I trust your eyeballs with grills better than mine. So is there a way to differentiate between E and Z grills using scans?

Yes! I recall a thread on a different forum a while back about this particular issue where Tipzi, Clark, Ken Lawrence, and probably others found that the aspect ratio between the two types is different. Here's the image that Tipzi created if I recall correctly:



Note that an E grill is nearly the same width, but is significantly taller than a Z grill.

The following assumes that Jeff's (ak_stamp) scan maintains an accurate aspect ratio.

I created an orthogonal grid then superimposed and scaled it over the points of his stamp:




Then I did the same thing with one of my known E grills:



Next I superimposed the two grids and aligned them at the top left most point of intersection:



We now see that Jeff's stamp has an aspect ratio of points that is shorter than a known E grill and matches closely with the difference pointed out in Tipzi's image. That difference is about half of the distance between the two points at the end.

Jeff, assuming that your scan is accurate, I now agree with essayk that your stamp is probably a Z grill!


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In a bit I'll start a new thread explaining how this method can also help in other ways of identifying a grill and determining if it is genuine.

@HisDNA

I appreciate the significant amount of trouble you went to in plotting this out, it is impressive. And it does provide for another way to evaluate the grill when the individual points are hard to distinguish. But in this case the simplest tell was in the orientation of the ridges on the points, which were clear in a large number of cases. I don't think there is any doubt that many of the point ridges in the OP grill have a pronounced horizontal orientation. That does not happen for the E and F grills, so even without other measurements, the balance is skewed in favor of it being a Z grill.

Wow – thanks immensely for the detailed information on ways to identify this grill and for the information on Mr. Harris. I've read a few other posts about using graphite on the grill to get it to show up better but I'm hesitant to do that because it may disturb the pencil notation on the back (which arguably may have some interesting history/linkage to a prominent stamp expert long ago). The scan was not altered in any way and the oblique photos were taken to highlight the grill detail. The posts above showing the lines and spacing of points are extremely helpful and I may have to try that trick on some other grills in my collection that have challenged me in the past.

This stamp was part of small, private collection that I had found in an old 3-ring binder marked "vintage stamps" at a thrift store a few years ago. It was my "Picasso at a garage sale" moment. I'm guessing that it may have been part of a larger donation from someone getting rid of a deceased relative's belongings. There were a number of other treasures in the binder (No. 2, multiple No. 64's (marked as such, but that I also need to confirm), mint banknotes, tobacco strips, and an assortment of glassines filled with some harder-to-find stamps). This potential Z grill was in the mix and has intrigued me ever since because it seemed to fit the specs for that grill type but was still a hard one to confirm.

Thanks again for the extremely helpful responses.

<-- (Heads out to local thrift store)

essayk,
I understand what you're saying. Part of me doing this was to satisfy myself as to what the ID is. I do see some evidence of horizontal ridges, but not enough for me to declare it definitively as a Z. You've got just a wee bit more experience than I.

Also, knowing that the aspect ratio probably matches a genuine Z means that it is much more likely to not be faked.

In the end, we have another tool in the kit. That makes the effort worthwhile to me.

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Jeff,
Congratulations on your great thrift store find! If only we could all be so lucky. Cheers!

Hall Of Fame quality thread!!

Ryan... that may not be a correct statement... as I recall, the 85B
which Bill Weiss certed for me has one partial row for sure, possibly
two... I haven't looked at it in awhile...

I see a clear 14x18 configuration in the one above as essayk has noted...

Randall

Randall,
If you read further down, I came to agree with essayk about the points count and it being a Z.

Concerning your 85B, did you find if it is an inverted grill or not?

Hi, Ryan...

Missed your followup comment... sorry about that...

With regards to the possibility of the partial vertical ridge, I had it
in my plans to send it off to Bill Weiss, when time permitted, however,
with his retirement, that will no longer be a possibility....

I would like to send it to either the PF or APS (not sure which would be
a better choice)... perhaps either would be suitable for the task...

Time and motivation are a scarce commodity in these parts given the
time and effort I have to devote to my work on an ongoing basis...

Between ebay and the brick and mortar, there's very little left - each
day after work each day... and now that we're going into the holiday
season, ebay will advance to about 75% of my workday effort... it's
a vicious cycle, but one that's entirely necessarily for the survival
effort (in the sense)...

If the ebay holiday season is fruitful, I'll be spending my derriere
off on stamps, come January... with my continued plans of obtaining
as much "nice, but affordable" material to fill my classics, followed
by finishing up my 'Shanghais', then I plan on expanding my proofs
while pricing is, for the most part, favorable on some material...

Lastly, I plan on heading into SPECIMEN and some selected revenues,
which is an area I've barely looked at over the years...

Randall