Be Careful When Buying US Coils!

The price gives it away anyhow. A genuine NH 445 coil would probably bring more at auction.

The top margin doesn't look straight to me (it appears to slant downwards at both ends).

Although it is not an acceptable method of verification, I'll attempt to use scans for suspected trimming.

Using the right stamp of the ebay pair, and the right stamp of area66's beautiful (certified?) pair as the control, I'll try using proportions to determine if trimmed.

The following measurements are from a zoom of 250% on my computer screen(measuring a printed scan would be more accurate). I'm using inches, folks ... feel free to convert.

area66 stamp = 4.23 x 4.72
ebay stamp = 3.94 x "X"

"Y" = 3.94 x 4.72 = 18.62
"X" = 18.62/4.23 = 4.4

Using proportions, ebay's height (X) should be close to 4.4.

it actually measures 4.16 ... a gotcha?

Measuring from images is tricky and has dependencies on the scanned configuration. This is even more true when the source are different. If I were to attempt to measure from disparate images, I would start by using the stamp design as a reference point. If the stamp design size is known, you may then be able to use it to determine the overall height of the coil. This takes some math and might put you into within the margin of error so you still might not be able to make a definitive call.
Don

If the book says not to buy a certian scott # without a Cert then there is a reason. Play with fire well you know the rest.

Personally, I find this situation dismaying, as it presumes that only an expert can identify these issues and that one must pay an expert for a certificate (which, of course, merely represents an "opinion") because there is no practical way for even a serious collector to education themselves at a sufficient level to confidently make the identification. It's sort of fundamentally unfair. I view this as a failure of communication by past philatelists, who have written extensively on this subject yet never found a way to clearly express a step-by-step, algorithmic approach for identification. Perhaps they have a vested interest or a quasi-academic need to run off on tangents and include historic or technical detail that the above-average collector does not need. What I have seen come closest to effective guidance are the many posts by our member Clark - how I wish that Santa would place a compilation of all of them, ordered by Scott number, under the tree.

Actually step by step lists have previously been defined and documented. Paul's book has a good worksheet to follow. And of course the APS class that Clark teaches also provides this education. You have to dig a bit, but this info is out there. There is a lot to learn and I suspect that many hobbyists give up on the complex Washington/Franklin production history and their resulting variances.
Don

I wish the books wernt so expensive, new collectors come in and get burned a couple times are going to leave the hobby forever, has anyone seen what they are doing on the coin sister site to this one?? people who are good at spotting the fakes are searching them out on ebay and having ebay take the auctions down. Maybe some of the people who are real good at these things here could do something similar.

People have been trying to do that for years, ebay ignores them (although at one time they didn't. The current owners are all children). In the scheme of things it's not enough money for ebay to care about at all.
I have heard experts, people that I KNOW have tremendous knowledge about flat plate coils state that probably 90% of all that are out there are fakes. It's not an area that novices should be buying. Genuine examples are scarce and there are plenty of cheap imperfs and cheap perforated stamps to alter. And people have been altering them practically since they were issued.

jim609,
Stamp Smarter has about a 38% success rate at getting listings improved or removed. Of course this barely scratches the surface. The bigger issue is exactly as revcollector stated, we have a lot of folks who think they know enough to find 'bargains'. In the last 2 months, Stamp Smarter has noted a total of over $43,000 worth of faked Washington/Franklin coils sold.

It is fairly well known that Washington/Franklin issues are faked in the percentages revcollector noted. Yet we are still spending money on them; some sellers count on this weakness. Unless a person has invested considerable time and money of learning this area they should only buy with a cert.

Linn's could help with more press coverage on this issue. I would love to see a them run an article based upon some 'undercover' work. For the article, have them go out and buy 25 or so coils and then report on how many are legitimate.
Don

When I used to collect stamps.
I had these types vert and horiz. but they were certified and I only bought them in pairs.
revCollector is right. I didn't know Bill died, billsbargainstamps, but last time I saw him in person he was getting up there.

Bill Wiess passed away, not Bill Lang.

Here is a good example, this listing has gotten many bids.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/361448553062/?rmvSB=true

To their credit the seller has modestly noted "some coils seems suspicious" you think?? I like the way the seller has arranged the stamps on the sheet, altering horizontal and vertical pairs. Wonder if this was done to ensure that buyers could not compare the height differences between the pairs?


Don

Here's a #483, just waiting for perfs and being listed as a #445 ...



... and here's a #493 that could be listed as a #445. Of course, the expert would check the back for the lack of the tell-tale signs of Flat Plate printing.

There is no need to use rotary coils to try and fake flat plate coils. The flat plate imperfs are very common to fairly common and the flat plate perforated stamps are very common used and mostly fairly common mint (especially straight edged and hinged examples). There is plenty of material to work from out there.