Imperforate Vertical Coil Of Scott 409 Design.

Has anyone heard of a vertical imperforate coil of the Scott 408 and 409 design of 1912? I can find no mention of imperforate vertical coils of these designs anywhere. Yet last week on ebay there was a sale for these Scott numbers in the vertical coil format. I copied a photo of the ebay offer if anyone wishes to see it. The photo even shows the stamps as the glue joint pairs.

I'm looking at an old catalog, but 408/409 were imperforates on a sheet of 400
so a cut out pair could appear to be a coil vertically or horizontally. Now the same design listed 412/413 is a vertical coil with no listing of an imperforated pairs, however. So my thought is that the seller right or wrong
the 408/409 imper. not a coiled pair.

Mike

Glue joint ????????

Please post the photo.


.....and, welcome to the club quigngt.

I was thinking along the same line since I could not find a catalog nor any website mentioning vertical imperforate coils of the 408/409 design. I wonder if they might possibly be privately made coils which I understand that a number of companies produced in the early 1900s.

Marty

Here's the photo of coil glue joints.



In the early 1900s, printing technology was apparently not yet able to print long coils. So, sheets were laid end to end or side to side with a small overlap which was glued and then the glued together sheets of stamps were cut into coils. The Postal authorities also sold full sheets to private companies who produced their own versions of coil stamps. Shermack and Mail-o-meter were two such companies. See the following link: www.1847usa.com/Glossary/GlossaryV.htm

Marty

Here is a better site concerning privately produced coil stamps.
http://www.1847usa.com/PrivatePerfs.htm
It does not mention glue joints but does mention sheets of 400 stamps sold to private companies.

I remember reading several years ago about gluing imperforate sheets together to make coils. If I find the site, I'll post it also.

I accidentally learned of glue joints a number of years ago when soaking some old coil stamps. After the soaking, I found one coil in which the cancel abruptly stopped on a coil stamp perforated on left side only. I later found a small piece of a coil stamp about 3/16" wide with perfs on right side with a matching cancel that obviously was glued to the first piece I found in the soaking water.

Marty

These stamps are listed in the Scott US Specialized catalog in the section on Flat Plate Imperforate Coil Stamps.

The 2 pairs posted are 408V and 409V. There are some collectors who prefer them in strips of 4, because they are easier to certify.

On another note, the term used in other philatelic circles (at least the ones I'm a part of) is "paste-up pairs", rather than glue joint pairs.

Personally, I think glue joint pairs is a more intuitively obvious term; but I don't get to call the shots.

Hmm, "paste up pair". I think I've heard that term as well but "glue joint pair" was the first term had I heard. Maybe we don't get call the shots but I still like the term "glue joint pair".

From the same 1847 website, the glossary lists "paste-up".

http://www.1847usa.com/Glossary/GlossaryP.htm

Actually, first time I heard the term "paste-up coils" describing a collection, I thought the owner had literally glued the stamps into their album instead of using hinges/mounts. It sold for quite a premium, so I looked up the term and that's how I learned it.

As I promised, here are photos of the two imperforate vertical coils. They are supposedly #408 and 409. Though it has been 5 months to the date since I first posted this thread. I just got them today.
I had ordered both coils as strips of four with a paste-up pair on both. But due to an unfortunate mix up, by the time the seller and I got the matter resolved he had sold the 1 cent paste-up pair. The 2 cent strip is a bit rough but it does have the pasteup pair (see enlargement). The seller was apologetic and kind enough to give two additional stamps.
The 1 cent might be the end of the roll since two stamps have no gum.

Marty

Why then is Scott number 459 specifically listed as a horizontal imperforate coil. It would seem that any imperf sheets sold to private companies and then converted into coil stamps would be coil stamps deserving of a main listing. ( I don't mean as private perforated coils. They are given a separate section in the Specialized)

Is it that number 459 was an official government issue as a horizontal imperforate coil and not issued by a private company? How was 459 sold? Could you go to a post office and have the clerk cut off a strip of the stamps and pass them over to the customer, or was 459 sold only to the private companies for use in their vending machines. If the latter, then how can 459 be distinguised from any of the imperf sheets sold to the private companies for THEIR conversion to coil stamps by pasting up sheets and then cutting in to long strips?

Your questions are really good, rohumpy, especially since Scott #459 in the horizontal format is type I which is the same type as #409.
If I turn mine sideways, will it be a #459?
There are members here who are better qualified than I am to answer them. I hope one or more of them can answer you with more authority than I can.

In this thread, khj verified that the Specialized catalog calls mine 408V and 409V.

As far as I know the USPS did not issue a vertical imperforate type I coil to the general public, but did officially issued the type I as a horizontal coil and therefore has its own number. Maybe the "paste-up" has something to do with this. I may be wrong but that's about all I can say, so we'll have to wait for others to answer.

Marty

quigngt, I don't think turning your 409 sideways would convert it into a 459(lol)

Seriously, 459 is a rotary press printing while 409 is flat plate.

Also, 459 is not in the section where 409V (et al) is found.


I guess the real question is why the USPOD would make an exception and issue 459, but not the others. What is it that makes 459 different from the privately issued H and V numbers?

Oh I forgot to say, those are some really nice stamps.

rohumpy, the experts haven't checked us out yet. But while I was checking out 1847USA, I found out that (maybe you already know this) #459 was only used by The U.S. Automatic Vending Company and only on their Type III private perforation. Maybe this might be a clue as to their scarcity.

I also wonder if #459 is not a paste-up coil issue. Just guessing, as I haven't found any info on this detail.

Marty

The more I read about the early coils, the more I realize that I don't know a lot. The rarer coils are really scary. You almost have to have a certificate for them unless the value is low enough to not attract fakers.

I have a few of the less expensive early coils, purchased from a reputable dealer, but who really knows. I do know that when I get 459, it is going to have to have a certificate of authenticity. Notice that I said "when". I really want that stamp. I received a circular which actually had a 459 for sale. Wanted $1000 for the single (gasp). Not for me at that price.

I also received an ad for I think 317, but it may have been 316. It is the 5 cent coil from the 1902 series. It was a pair. Only wanted $18,000 for the pair. They did offer to make it easy to purchase by taking $9000 one month and $9000 the next! I don't know what I ever did to warrant anyone sending me a stamp offer for $18,000.

I doubt I'll ever have a 459, even at recent ebay sold prices. In 2008 MNH #459 pairs sold for $475-$675 and MH pairs sold for $170-$350. What is even more surprising is that at the NY auction houses a MNH graded 98 pair sold for $400!
Whether or not the ebay sales were with certificates, I don't know but I would think that the NY auction houses would not sell a faked #458.

That sure makes the prices asked in the circular and the ad are incredibly inflated.

Marty

All above price info is from www.theswedishtiger.com