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2 Cents - Scott #613 Harding Identification

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Pillar Of The Community

Canada
689 Posts
Posted 10/21/2011   4:26 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add cdnum to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hi,

How to identify Harding stamp Scott #613 (rotary)?



Thank you!

CDNum
https://picasaweb.google.com/CDNumStamps/




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Pillar Of The Community
Canada
6525 Posts
Posted 10/21/2011   4:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jamesw to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
For arguments sake I lined up your three stamps. They are all the same height (in the printed area).
Rotary stamps are slightly larger than the flat plate stamps because the drum on which the stamps are printed distorts (stretches) the image area slightly. The flat plate stamps are 19 1/4mm X 22 1/4mm while the rotary are 19 1/4mm X 22 1/2mm
Since these are all the same height we know they are all either flat plate or rotary. Now you just have to get you your nice accurate millimeter ruler and measure the height of the image area.



edit- Also the rotary Harding comes in two perf sizes. The 612 is perf 10 while the 613 (much more valuable, but I don't have a current price) is perf 11
The flat plate variety is SC#610 and is perf 11
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Edited by jamesw - 10/21/2011 4:58 pm
Pillar Of The Community
Canada
689 Posts
Posted 10/21/2011   4:57 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cdnum to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi JamesW,

Thank you for these explanation.

1/4mm ... I cannot evaluate it. To hard for me.

There is no die difference than 1/4 mm height?

"Since these are all the same height we know they are all either flat plate or rotary. "

I think it will be the bad one... :-)

CDNum
https://picasaweb.google.com/CDNumStamps/
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Pillar Of The Community
Canada
689 Posts
Posted 10/21/2011   5:06 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cdnum to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I asked this question because the second one seem to me bigger than other... I think it is because the stamp is blacker than other. Another thing... perforation are not at the same place at left and right of this second one stamp.

Thank you again!

CDNum
https://picasaweb.google.com/CDNumStamps/
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Edited by cdnum - 10/21/2011 5:11 pm
Pillar Of The Community
Canada
6525 Posts
Posted 10/21/2011   5:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jamesw to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi CDNum. You have to look at the print area, where the printed image is, not the size of the actual paper. The second one does look bigger, but that's because it has a little more paper at the bottom between the border and the perfs. As for perfs, best to use a perforation guide to measure. Don't just compare it to the stamp sitting next to it (if that's what you were referring to)
And yes, chances are pretty good that it is the 'bad one' as you put it. Don't look on it as bad. Just not as profitable.
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Pillar Of The Community
Canada
689 Posts
Posted 10/21/2011   5:33 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cdnum to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, profitable knowledge :-)


Thank you!

CDNum
https://picasaweb.google.com/CDNumStamps/
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United States
1614 Posts
Posted 10/21/2011   5:36 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mike33 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
According to a Mystic catalog that came with my recent supplement pages, an easy way to tell rotary from flat plate is that the flat plate stamps in most cases will have ink on the back. Don't know how accurate that is as I don't ever remember hearing that before but it seemed interesting
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United States
1348 Posts
Posted 10/21/2011   8:39 pm  Show Profile Check ray.mac's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add ray.mac to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
cd-- this topic was covered back in July-- if you look back in this same folder "US Classic Stamps Mint and Used", you'll find it. Here is what I said in that thread, and same goes here:

they made millions and millions of the Harding Memorial Stamp, he died after a very short time in office, and there was a lot of use of these stamps-- and there are 47 known copies of #613: basically, there is less than a 1 in 10,000,000 chance that any Harding perforated stamp you could look at has a chance of being a #613-- probably less, because any one that you have has already been looked at by a bunch of folks since the 1920's who hoped THEY had a #613.

You have to measure the design. Flat plate vs. rotary press is the type of printing, so it would have absolutely nothing to do with the perforations.

I would suggest very strongly that if you're going to collect US stamps, you consider finding a copy of the Scott US Specialized Catalog on eBay-- and it doesn't have to be a new copy. You can find an old copy from the '90s, for $10 and it would have pages upon pages of information to absorb, and would explain the differences between the common stamps in these issues, and the rarities.

I would highly doubt if anyone on SCF has a #613, or if anyone will ever have a #613-- it's just not a stamp that is on most want lists or any of us, even if we're long time US Classics collectors, ever have a chance to own someday.

Here is the website for Siegel's Auction census page for #613-- they keep a census of many of the rarities-- that's how I came up with 47:
http://www.siegelauctions.com/enc/census/613.pdf

TO ADD: The easiest way to test for a wider, rotary press-printed design is to cut off 4 corners of a cheaper, even damaged stamp you already know is rotary press, and then place it right on top of all of your perf 11's. That 1/4mm means the difference between a buck, and $50,000......

Hope this helps! Thanks, Ray

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Canada
689 Posts
Posted 10/22/2011   04:57 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cdnum to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi,

I tried to compare stamps but I cannot see difference. 1/4 mm is little.


"1 in 10,000,000 chance that any Harding perforated stamp you could look at has a chance of being a #613"

Mmmmm... I never win the lottery :-)


Thank you Mike33 and Ray.Mac!

CDNum
https://picasaweb.google.com/CDNumStamps/

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Australia
1251 Posts
Posted 10/22/2011   08:04 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Horamkhet to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply


Hi to all, and Jamesw
Now I am totally confused.
I have showed these three Hardings before. But I have just measured them using a millimeter steel ruler.
The one on the extreme right measure 22 and bit mm and 19 and a bit mm and the two on the left are nearly 23mm and 19 and a bit mm. They are all perf 11. I have measured them several times and I come up with the same measurements each time. I am measuring from the edge of the black frame so I hope that I am measuring from the correct area.
Now it would be easier to win the lottery without a ticket. These all came from a deceased estate.
As I said I am now totally perplexed and confused.
Regards,
Horamakhet


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67 Posts
Posted 12/06/2011   6:53 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Jcstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Just added to this post...So...Purchased my "1 in 10,000,000"/Birthday (tommorow) lottery stamp for $2..they both were listed as Scott 610...wont be here till friday and assuming it arrives and safely...think the pic explains itself, and second pic shows suspect next to known Scott 613 but I guess you cant really compare a camera pic with a flat scan because of depth/distance factor...Two stamps each highlighted in blue are the ones I purchased...somewhat poor pics from seller only reason questionable...Anyways, once they are at hand I will post answer by end of week if I hit Jackpot or not...lol...Prob just a big flatplat 610 (knock, knock)....Thoughts, comments always appreciated..






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Edited by Jcstamp - 12/07/2011 02:21 am
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United States
2480 Posts
Posted 12/06/2011   7:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add tomiseksj to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
There is a nice, simple explanation of the "template" comparison method that ray.mac has recommended at the link below -- the images will allow you to visualize the difference between the flat plate and rotary press printings.

http://www.kenmorestamp.com/presses.asp
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Guatemala
1500 Posts
Posted 12/06/2011   8:48 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add quigngt to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Horamkhet, when I enlarge your photo and carefully measure the three stamps, I have an identical vertical measurement of 95mm for two stamps. One is almost 95.7mm but at a true scale it would only be less than approximately 0.250mm. I don't believe that will quite make it to be a #613.
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Valued Member
Sweden
116 Posts
Posted 12/07/2011   02:28 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add mrmagic to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the excellent link tomiseksj.
This may not be a very useful post on my behalf. But I just wanted to say thanks.
especially im not that good on us stamp. ( or stamps at all, but always nice to learn more.

Keep up the good work...
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Pillar Of The Community
Canada
6525 Posts
Posted 12/07/2011   08:52 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jamesw to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry I didn't see your earlier posting Horamkhet, regarding these Hardings. I'm certainly no expert on these, but perhaps you should check the batteries in your ruler.
I did the same manipulation in Photoshop with yours as I did with cdnum's. Lined up the tops and used a red line to show how they're all lined up. It looks like you have three #610s.
The difference between the flat plate printing and rotary press is only .25mm. Pretty minute to see with a metal ruler.

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Valued Member
67 Posts
Posted 12/07/2011   1:21 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Jcstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Either of these two tools will work if stamp at hand....Pricision US Specialty Multi-gauge and or digital caliper.




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