Help With Two Turkish Stamps

I have two turkish stamps I've having trouble identifying.



The stamp on the left appears to be from the 1865 issues (Scott Nos. 8-13). I see it as denominated 10pa. However the 10pa stamp should be deep green (per Scott) and should be perforated 12 1/2. The stamp I have is grey (the scan makes it appear lighter than it is) and is perforated 13.

The stamp on the right appears to be from the 1869 issues (Scott Nos. 20-26). I see it as denominated 5pi. If it is Scott 24, any ideas as to why it is so much cruder in appearance than other Turkish stamps in my collection dated from 1865 to 1876? Could it be some low quality forgery?

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

Eric

eric the later issues of the stamp on the left (1869-1876) list the 10pa stamps like yours in lilac, dark lilac, red violet and violet, with varying perforations and overprints. I'd suggest your is one of those.

The 1865 issues have a different surcharge at the top. All of the later issues have a surcharge as shown in the left stamp. As a result, I presume that the left stamp is a 1865 issue - but the color and perforation seems wrong.

Sorry - Correction below

The 1865 issues have a different surcharge at the top. All of the later issues have a surcharge as shown in the right [not left] stamp. As a result, I presume that the left stamp is a 1865 issue - but the color and perforation seems wrong.

Hi Eric, I suspect the grey stamp is a colour changeling but I'm not sure. My copy of the 10 paras from the original issue is a dark green grey shade but it's not an intense colour and I imagine it could be bleached to a light grey.

The blue stamp was printed in Constantinople from new plates and this is how they look, without the rays around the star. The original stamps were printed in Paris and have sharper details.

Opinion:

You have 10pa 1865 with a type 3 overprint.
this is a common "essay" often offered as "errors"
known printed in numerous fancy colours.

They were printed from a special plate
which included all six values.

Stanley Gibbons 1965 pp846

Cannot comment on the 5 piastre,
here are my copies
My guess is, one Harrow Perforated, and the other perforated by sewing machine.
I do not have the stamps on hand to check indentations.

Rod, I know absolutely nothing about early Turkish stamps, but I'd be prepared to make a modest bet (running naked down St Georges Terrace?) that the first is the sewing machine perf, and the second is the harrow, if those are the only choices.

This Jammu & Kashmir sheet (SG 102, the 1878 ½ Anna on laid paper)



was perforated with a harrow device.

We are all saved from your public embarassment, Tony :)
Yep, would agree,
and yes, I have your Harrow perf image saved from times before,
I was studying the image before I posted.

I observe you like to make safe bets ;)

Were you the gentleman that had $100,000 to $110,000 on Black Caviar?

Rod, I only like VERY safe bets. If it was $100,000 of my money, I might possibly wager it on the Sun coming up in the East tomorrow ... after a lot of thought.

Here's an example (you won't yet have seen) of how sadly and quickly that harrow device used at Srinagar deteriorated:



and here's the cover it was on:





The printers more or less scrapped the harrow shortly after, and reverted to the post office scissors as a more reliable means of separation.

You know Tony, I don't recall ever seeing an example of a Harrow perforator.
I can see how it fell into disrepair, the pins possibly blunted in the box,
and they probably began to bludgeon the frame with a piece of 4x2.

Your harrow perforator is only as sharp as the bluntest pin.

Feel free to post any images of a Harrow frame.

I don't believe it still exists, or was ever photographed, but the excellent Collecting Kashmir Web site (http://www.kashmirstamps.ca/Perforation.html) has this to say about it: