Two Penny Blue Question

I recently picked up a Two Pence blue from ebay for $ 6.00 (All four margins missing :(

So I found a small write up to help identify the plates and my stamp has the two white lines above the TWO PENCE which means it came from Plates 3 and beyond. However, it has what appears to be part of the Maltese Cross as a cancel (in black). So according to the site, it said these Cancels were only from Plate 3 for this type of stamp (White lines above two pence).

Am I right in making these conclusions?

Edit:

This was the link I read this up on:

http://www.all-originals.co.uk/1840...-stamps.html

Your source says...




So, although it is more likely to be from plate 3, plate 4 isn't ruled out as it may also be found with a maltese cross cancellation.

From my http://bigblue1840-1940.blogspot.co...40-1900.html post...


1841 Scott 4 2p blue (SG 14)
This rather heavily cancelled example is an imperforate Two Pence Blue issued in 1841 as was the One Penny Red above. The paper is more or less "blued", and the watermark remains the small crown. These were printed from Plates 3 & 4, and the engraving should be identical to the imperforated One Penny Black and Red. There was a Two Pence Blue issued in 1840 (Scott 2 /SG 5) that does not have the horizontal white lines below "postage" and above the "two pence".

JkjBlue, firstly let me tell you that the Stamp in your Avatar is my favorite Austrian stamp.

Thanks for your reply.

Unfortunately, I am still very new to serious philately and am trying to learn as much as I can. This forum has been especially helpful.

Also, I still have not bought watermark fluid :/ , have not had time to go downtown and pick it up. I live in the suburbs.

Anyway, here is my stamp. This is the same scan from the seller, pretty good but he didn't post the back of it which had bluish stains on it. Could be the ink or the blued paper you mention?

Sadly, let me warn you there are no Margins :/

Let me know your thoughts.

Wow Stallzer thats a really nice one.

JkJBlue - Amazing blog, all good and bookmarked.

A few notes about the OP's stamp, Gibbons #13-14-15 depending on shade.

As you can see, it is quite a different color from the other 2d's shown in this post. I wonder if it could be Gibbons #15aa, "violet blue," as opposed to the common colors "pale blue," "blue," and "deep full blue," i.e., #13-14-15. Gibbons #15aa catalogs £1800 used in the 2012 catalog. It's printed on "...thicker, lavender-tinted paper," but after 150+ years, that light shade might not show.

Any of the common shades with black Maltese Cross cancellation catalog £275, as opposed to £100 for the others with normal cancellations. Blue and red Maltese Cross cancels are extremely rare, but they exist.

This stamp perforated could be Gibbons #19, 20, 20a, 23, 23a, 27, 34, 36a, etc., and with zero margins, it's almost impossible to identify. But some expert needs to zero in on the shade; it's at least in the realm of possibility, as none of the perforated stamps were printed in violet-blue.

Thanks for the input Doug. I am zero in color identification. I can clearly note the differences but I'm not sure which color it denotes.

I would say JkJBlue's stamp is a pale blue, Stallzer's would be deep full blue or blue? And I can tell mine is a different shade. Then again, there is the possibilty of scanner or photograph lighting.

With reference to the paper type, I could take a picture of the back if that would show you anything?

One more thing I thought of. Do you think someone might have clipped the perfs? if there were any?

We need someone with the early specialists' handbooks, especially someone who plates those first imperforate stamps. They'd know the shade in a minute. Impossible to tell if the perfs have been clipped, but again, the true identity could probably be identified by plating.

Yes but thanks again for your help. I am combing the web for good resources, found some decent links but not anything for an amateur yet :)

More than you wanted to know about the 2d blues:
1840: Plates 1 and 2 issued. Plate 1 printed stamps that were available in early May. Plate 2 went to press in July. Both are usually cancelled by the Maltese Cross.
Note on the Maltese Cross - it was originally inked in red, but postmasters were instructed to switch to black in in February 1841 (though there were some trials of black ink in London in late 1840.
1841: New 2d plate made - Plate 3 - with white lines at top and bottom. This plate was registered on February 25, 1841 and went to press a day or so later. At this time, the standard cancellation was a black Maltese cross
1844: The Maltese Cross obliterators were replaced by a series of numeral cancellation devices - 5 different styles. Plate 3 continues to be used to produce 2d blue stamps
1849: Plate 4 of the 2d blue is put to press (and plate 3 retired). Note that this is 5 years after the Maltese cross was retired.
1854: Perforated stamps became the norm

Shades: pale blue, blue, dark blue - all the same value. Also, violet blue, which was only printed in 1851 (so therefore only on plate 4), is very scarce, has a catalog value of £1800, and requires certification. Unless you bought it as a violet-blue, it most likely isn't. Save your money on the certification fees unless you're virtually certain.

Therefore:
If it is a 2d blue with white lines and a Maltese cross, it is almost certainly from plate 3
If it is a 2d blue with white lines and a numeral cancellation, it can be from either plates 3 or 4.
As the MX was only used for 3 years on one plate, it has a premium value (SG catalog for an 1841 2d with MX is £250, with a numeral cancellation is £100)

Exceptions:
There are 1840 2d blues (no lines) that have numeral cancellations, but these are the exception and are worth a premium (SG catalog for an 1840 with MX is £850, with an 1844 numeral is £2500)
There may be a plate 4 with a MX, but I haven't seen one.

For more on the imperforate line engraved stamps (black, blue, and red), here's another site with a somewhat quirky collection of them:
http://victoria.cgpostal.com

Great info, Thanks Chipg

Wow, thanks for that awesome post.

Edit:

So, I am assuming this is a Plate 3 with a Maltese X.

However, as far as the CV of the Maltese X's are concerned. Is there real time value behind this? Or is this just a SG or Scott listing which does not reflect true market prices?

What I am trying to ask is if there are collectors who are willing to pay $ 100-200 for a stamp only because of a cancellation (Although the cancellation is a rare one). I am guessing only specialized collectors would be interested in this?

white lines + MX = plate 3. A rule you can basically live with (and plate 3 means it's NOT violet-blue).

SG catalog represents a multiple of retail - especially for less-than-perfect examples. However, it is indicative of relative rarity/demand.

Are there collectors willing to pay extra for a cancellation - most certainly. Rare cancellations demand higher prices - regardless of the country of issue. Look at what is paid for Waterbury cancellations on US stamps. Among the imperforate GB, distinctive MX cancellations on penny reds can make them worth thousands. There is even a wide range of values for the different numeral in MX cancellations (the 12-in-MX is rarest on the 1d, but the most common on the 2d, the 10-in-MX is rarest on the 2d).

If one is filling spaces by standard catalog number, there is little or no difference between MX or numeral-cancelled stamps. Virtually all printed albums would have 1 space for the penny black, one for the 1840 blue, one for the penny red, and one for the 1841 blue.

Specialists would want one of each plate, each state of a plate, when one exists, and one of each cancellation possible, and even varieties of cancellations.

See the collection linked to as to how absurd the specialization and search for even slight differences can get.

Thanks very much again Chip. I am feeling a lot more enlightened :)

I also have one each of the two versions of #4'; one with MX pm and the other a #8.

I found the plate No. on the Scott #33's, but I can't find it on the No. 4's. According to Scott's, (under verbiage on no. 29) plate numbers are under the scroll work at the sides of the stamp. Is that the case with #4 as well? What am I missing?

Here are the images of the two No. 4's

1. The MX_Front



2.The MX_ Back (These are marked as No. 3's - have no idea why)



The No. 8 - Front



The No.8 - back