Calling Bothwell Watermark Detectives -- Help!

Hello everyone.

I'm getting deep into the Large Queens, and like others, I'm having trouble IDing Bothwell Paper and watermarkings.

I've lurked other threads on this forum and it seems as though Bothwell paper has the following characteristics:

(1) Usually thinner than regular paper (ie. the stamp colour appears deeper/more transparent on scans)
(2) A vertical grain (still a tad unclear about this)
(3) When placed in water, will curl vertically in the direction of the grain

Here are some scans, first as normal and second with the saturation maxed out.

I'd very much appreciate it if members could take a look and give me their opinion as to whether the paper is Bothwell or not. Also, after staring at these for a few hours, my eyes seem to be finding watermark letters (wishful thinking I reckon)

Since opinion seems to be divided about using lighter fluid, should I order some watermark fluid? I also saw a thread about scanning pictures in "negative" mode, but I can't figure that out either.. .

Many thanks!







What on Earth is that odd symbol on the right stamp..it looks like 'JL'
..I've seen it on other LQs..

Welcome to the forum vfstamp
i amm not expert with bothwell paper and some times is very, very hard to detect..Here is a couple of examples to look at..Hard some times to see it on this forum, cause of monitors..scans..etc.
Hope it gets your closer since you have the stamps in your hand.
Robert

Hi Wert: yes, I did see that scan in threads past.

I think it's quite an anomaly that the watermark is quite so visible. I've bought a few off SAN that are supposed to be watermarked but it's invisible to my naked eye.

All: Where's the best/cheapest place for a Canadian to buy the Watermark Fluid? Do the UV light gadgets on ebay work at all?

Now I've discovered that I was incorrect--Bothwell is actually a thicker paper (though not quite as thick as Duckworth #8--soft blotting). It's vertically woven which means it curls from the sides, and thus leads to stamps that are a bit "taller." But I'm not certain if any other Duckworth paper types are so (I believe one of the 'thin' varieties is also vert. woven...but thin is easily distinguishable from thicker Bothwell). So, experts, using this test I should be able to ID the Bothwells, correct?

As for the diamond grid, I've seen on these boards some examples with, and some without it. Confusing.

Thanks for the help.

@vfstamp:
I don't see a watermark on any of the stamps you posted.

The cheapest place for "watermark" fluid is a smoke shop - buy a can of Ronson Lighter fluid (the fluid, not the gas). It works just fine, as long as you don't do your watermarking be candlelight or while smoking. Open a window after you're done to let the fumes out.

Bothwell paper has a noticeable pattern that you'll get used to seeing, once you know it. If you find one stamp with a clear watermark, you'll have an example of the paper that you can compare to others. Only 13 or 14 stamps on any sheet of Bothwell paper will have a part of the watermark, so there are way more Bothwell unwatermarked examples than Bothwell watermarked ones.

Good hunting.

C.

@chip

Thanks for your comments. I've heard lighter fluid can make postmarks bleed..is that untrue? I don't smoke or barbeque and I'm not familiar with Smoke shops (I know I sound like a fool)... I do have a "Home Hardware" nearby--will they carry the Ronson's?

(1) I have stamps that I did buy that were advertised as Bothwell, but I'm suspicious about some of them. If I post pictures, might you be able to help? Unfortunately my little group of supposed Bothwells (with and without WM) hasn't revealed any major distinguishing pattern thus far..

(2) Would you say the Heads I posted already are all on the standard horizontal wove?

Just trying to better understand the Duckworth papers. Without Mr. D's book (I think it's out of print), I'm finding differentiating between the 10 paper types is quite the challenge.

thanks!

@vfstamp:

look for a cigar or pipe shop if your hardware store doesn't have it.

Here are a couple of Bothwells - one without and one with watermarks. You can pick up the paper pattern and mesh on these. Your first scan looks like the Bothwell paper. So do some of the others, but it is harder to tell in the scans.

C.

here are a couple examples of Bothwell with watermarks. a 3c (number 25a and 2 1C brown (number 22a)

Here are three more examples of watermarks on Large Queens:

Two Cent Watermarked E inverted Lower Left Corner:


Three Cent Watermarked HTO Bottom Third of Stamp:


Three Cent Watermarked M (inverted) Lower Left:

When I have more time, I'll reply properly to this topic. Here are a couple of things that I have found studying LQ's and watermarks.

The Bothwell paper is a fragile paper and generally the perfs are broken and not clean. But it does take the ink well so the design is very clear. It is generally thin but not always. It is never thick. If you have a fuzzy design or clean perfs, it likely won't be Bothwell.

The 5c Large Queen always has the vertical mesh pattern so if you want to compare then you can use any 5c LQ. The mesh pattern is more clear when you dip the stamp in fluid and it is Bothwell paper because the paper is thin.

The watermark itself is usually very clear but I have copies where you cannot see the watermark unless you use fluid and I have one copy where the watermark is invisible unless you dip the stamp in tap water.

Here is a 2c LQ that shows the characteristics of Bothwell Paper. Looking at the front, you can see that the ink is bright and the design is fairly detailed and not too fuzzy. The perfs are not clean and sometimes ragged.

Looking at the back, the paper is thin and you can see the design from the back of the stamp. There is a crease in the top right corner. Creases are fairly common as this paper is weak-ish. You can see the dotted weave of the paper. If you look carefully, you will see that it is a vertical diamond pattern. In most copies, the watermark is easy to see. But in my previous post, I noted that watermark fluid and tap water may be needed to see the watermark.

Bliss! I found a watermark!





The previous owner outlined the bottom in pencil...I wasn't sure if I was being conned or not, but now I definitely see it. It's SO faint!

Also, here are my "other contenders" that curled side-to-side in water. Thank you everyone for the help IDing Bothwell..the "ragged perfs" really helps.

What do we think about these?





Now that I've "sort of" got a taste of Bothwell, there's 9 other Duckworth papers I need to learn. Mr D's original book is out of print (nothing at the Toronto library)...so what's the best source that one can use?

Many thanks

Check with the VG Greene Philatelic Foundation they are supposed to be getting another printing of the second edition of Duckworth made.