Old French Letter 1703 Help Needed

Hi Florian thanks very much for the excellent transcript the problem is I don't deal in loose stamps I only sell some stamped covers / pre-stamp letters and another point I have very little Australian material. I don't have those listed stamps you want. Here is one you want on ebay the Lyre bird take a look

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1941-Aus...em419a30b32a

I am unable to supply these stamps, sorry

Duncan - As you could see I asked for some of the most common and mostly still cheapest stamps of those years, all of which (in complete sets) I have in VFU condition in my earlier collection of used stamps.

If you cannot see your way to reciprocating I am afraid I cannot waste any more time on these time-consuming yet challenging problems.

Note that Google Translator can play havoc with such things as this letter.

Sorry - nothing doing.

Florian

"I am afraid I cannot waste any more time on these time-consuming yet challenging problems."

Some people do this kind of deciphering for 1) a challenge. 2) help out a known member of this Community. c) pleasure.
I'm sure Hieronymus or KGB did not think of any reward other than the above points... I might even do a little bit too ... and possibly come up with something in the fullness of time.

Since duncanvr was very honest in saying that he was not interested in collecting this letter but rather simply reselling it, I think it is appropriate to think that some sort of reciprocation might be expected.
Don

"Some people do this kind of deciphering for 1) a challenge. 2) help out a known member of this Community. c) pleasure."

Agreed, scotzm . I only noticed and copied the post on Monday and don´t ask me how much time I´ve spent on the whole of it without fully satisfying my intellectual curiosity but I´ve got other things to do as well. Just have a go at it and see.

Florian

Might someone help me with this? What does "nothing doing" mean?

The problem that I see in this thread is that the original poster, Duncanvr, was not fair and open in the reason why he was asking for help on this cover. He was asking for help in a way that did not make clear that he is just a dealer wanting information to help him get a better price to sell this and use the expertise here to increase his personal profit. I think it is fine to ask for help on something that one wants to sell, but only when the person asking is up front about why he wants the information. Starting a thread with something along the lines of "I will be selling this and I am hoping that someone can give me some information so that I may provide it in my auction" or something along those lines. In that case people can decide if they wish to put in the work to do a translation, or research a value in a catalog or such. Because Duncanvr did not reveal that he is only reasearching to sell I think that Florian is very justified in being taken aback at learning of Duncanvr's intentions and subsequently asking Duncanvr for some kind of modest and friendly stamp related compensation for the hard work Florian did in the expectation that this was for a fellow collector who wanted to learn more about his collection.

$40 sounds like a very full retail value to me, based on ebay sales I have seen over the years in both the US and the French ebay websites. If you are lucky in selling it for this then I would be happy for you, but my sense of what I have seen over the years in the various ebay auction sites is that it might need to come down in price a bit to attract a buyer. Age does not really correspond to value very much, unless one starts talking about things that are much older and even then there are many examples of 2000 year old things such as coins or other relics going for just a few dollars.

I do try to be useful to amateur collectors in this forum whenever I can - just for a simple thank-you (only once or twice for not even that) and I must say there have been cases when other collectors had gone out of their way to help me solve some queries of mine, which I always try to never fail to reciprocate for.

Actually, I tackled the letter as a challenge, absorbed in the comparison/substitution/contextualising/interpretation game against the difficulties of the writer's singular hand and his spelling pecularities - without any other considerations.

The problems encountered, however, proved to be far more time-consuming than those experienced while coping with a 1723 "To-Whom-It-May-Concern" letter in Latin (asking for a safe passage of a travelling salesman and his goods - see https://goscf.com/t/42715 ), which was child´s play in comparison with the above message, so having realized that this was not an amateur collector´s request, I decided to ask for "some kind of modest and friendly stamp related compensation" (as Kimo puts it) for the effort I had put in so far - intending to continue later on because taking breaks often helps in such cases. Ne quid nimis.

But the querist declined my proposition as it did not suit him. Having acted on the task of my own free will, his decision served me right. Again: Ne quid nimis.

That is all there is to it.

Thank you, 51studebaker and Kimo, for seeing my point.

Well done, Florian. I would have gladly agreed to your terms were I making the same request for translation.

Cheers!

Brian

Brian, cheers!

Florián

Now that the time is ripe for re-embarking on the problem because some time has elapsed and I have managed to get it out of my mind (ne quid nimis: solvitur ambulando), here is another attempt of mine to read the message written with some difficulty with a quill pen by a somewhat unsure hand, which cannot, however, be described as lacking a certain amount of schooling or being utterly untrained:


Monsieur Doirvaud
Monsieur Doirvaud
Mons(ieur) dehors et de la
Monsieur dehors et dela
Monsieur outside and beyond
bernadiere
bernadiere
ala Bernard'ure
a la Bernardure

---
as(ile) Sernin, le 29: nobre 1703
asile Sernin, le 29 novembre 1703
refuge Sernin, the 29th of November 1703

Monsieur
J'ay recu l'honneur de la vostre. ie feray mon
J'ai reçu l'honneur de la vôtre. Je ferai mon
It was a great honour for me to receive your letter. I will do my
possible, pour l'afaire, de m(onsieur) vostre neveu.
possible, pour l'affaire de monsieur votre neveu.
best in the case of Monsieur your nephew.
Je suis la parole pour vostre Rente de
Je suis la parole pour votre rente de
I follow the debate concerning your rent of
Le Caupain, on demande bon marché et ce quj
Le Copain. On demande bon marché et ce qui
Le Copain. They desire a low price and what
empeche, encore de faire. le marché c´est que
empeche encore de faire le marché c´est que
still prevents the contract being finalised is that
madame de Camonne, de feu du lieutenant
madame de Camonne, de feu du lieutenant
Madame de Camonne, of the household of lieutenant
Duperron de Montmorillon, jette de la poussiere
Duperron de Montmorillon, jette de la poussiere
Duperron de Montmorillon, is bluffing
dans les yeux de la personne, a quj j'en ay
dans les yeux de la personne, a qui j'en ai
the person I discussed it with
parlé en luj dizant qu'elle a de grosse de
parlé en lui disant qu'elle a de grosse de
telling him she has a writ of
Presanction et Hipoteque sur Dix
présanction et hypotheque sur dix
presanction and a mortgage of ten
Livres. Je feray m'on possible pour eviter
livres. Je ferai mon possible pour éviter
Louis d'or. I will do my best to overcome
Cette difficulté et faire conclure la chose
cette difficulté et faire conclure la chose.
this difficulty and carry the matter through.
Je vouz en donneray, advise premier
Je vous en donnerai avis premier
I will notify you of it first.
Jay parlé a monsieur de la vigerie Filz de
J'ai parlé a monsieur de la viguerie, fils de
I have spoken to a person on the council, son of
feu M(onsieur) de Conequanier de vostre affaire
feu Monsieur de Conequanier de votre affaire
the household of Conequanier, about your business
et il ma dict ne pouvoir rien faire
et il m'a dit ne pouvoir rien faire
and he informed me that he was unable to do anything
Sauve voir, unne Coppie de vos, piesses
Sauf voir une copie de vos pieces.
but see a copy of one of your documents.

-----

Sil vous plaist de me l´envoyer ie luy
S'il vous plaît de me l´envoyer. Je lui
Please let me have it. I will
feray voir, et aprandray Sa derniere
ferai voir, et apprendrai sa derniere
let him have a look at it and learn his final
Rezolluction:, vous Recevres bien tost
résolution. Vous recevrez bientôt
analysis. You will soon receive
le onze livres, que j´enverray jncessamant
le onze livres, que j´enverrai incessamment
the eleven Louis d'or, which I will send without delay
a Monsieur Ledrydu, pour'cequj vous
a Monsieur Ledrydu. Pour ce qui vous
to Monsieur Ledrydu. As for what
Revient des rentiers d´Huw par Silvine
revient des rentes d´Huw par Silvine
is due to you of the rents in Huw by Silvine
Pignon de Feu de Gille-Gaschard, ie vous
Pignon de Feu de Gille-Gaschard, je vous
Pignon of the household of Gille-Gaschard, I
Prie bien humblemant de rien envoyer
prie bien humblement de rien envoyer
humbly beg you not to send anything
... ... quj aprouve la quittance
... ... qui approuve la quittance
... ... who approves the receipt
que j'en ayt donnée ala d(it)e Pignon
que j'en avais donnée a la dite Pignon.
which I had given to the said Pignon.
Je ne Manquéray pas de vous envoyer
Je ne manquérai pas de vous envoyer
I will not fail to send you
dieu aydant la tenue de nouit, le plustost
dieu aidant la tenue de nuit, le plus tôt
with God's help the nightgown as soon as
que je pouray, il m'est du, plus de 200 fr.
que je pourrai. Il m'est du plus de 200 fr.
I can. They owe me over 200 Louis d'or
d'arrerages, ie n'ay jamais vu de ce
d'arrérages, je n'ai jamais dit de ce
of arrears, I have never seen
Gens si durs, que ceux de bois joubert
gens si durs que ceux de bois joubert.
people so tough as those of bois joubert.
Je travalle. aultant qu il m'est possible
Je travaille autant qu'il m'est possible
I do all I can
pour faire payer les vielles rentes
pour faire payer les vieilles rentes
to have the old rents paid
mais j'aprehande, n'en pouvoir pas
mais j'appréhende n'en pouvoir pas
but I fear that I cannot
venir. a bout que par desir
venir a bout que par desir
do anything about it except by means of a device
deretenire que je faray donner a Montmorillon
de retenir que je ferai donner a Montmorillon
to retain what I will give to Montmorillon.
Je vous preriray Souvant puiz que vous
Je vous prierai souvent puisque vous
I will often ask your advice since you
m'el'ordonnere, ie n'e vous Seaures
me l'ordonnez. Je ne vous saurai
order me so. I will not be able to
Mander, des nouvelle du quartier Dici
mander des nouvelles du quartier d'ici
let you have the news of this neighbourhood.
Personne nj ..... plus et on m'a-
Personne ni ..... plus et on ma-
Nobody .... ...... any more and I was
assuré que madame estait bien incomodé
assuré que madame était bien incomodé.
told that Madame was seriously ill.
C'est unne personne. Dublanc quj m´e
C'est une personne, Dublanc qui me
It was a certain Dublanc who told me
L'adict. Despuis doux jours, elle est
l'a dit. Depuis douze jours elle est
so. For twelve days she has been
beaucoup enflée degressé et son medicin
beaucoup enflée, dégraissée, et son medicin
much swollen, very thin, and her doctor
aprehande, qu'il Se forme unne
appréhende, qu'il se forme une
fears that she is afflicted by
ydropizie elle dorme espece de
hydropisie. Elle dorme espece de
dropsy. She sleeps a sort of
Someil létargique quj n'e l'abandonne
sommeil létargique qui ne l'abandonne
lethargic sleep which persists.
Pas mons(ieur) Son expoux et messieurs
pas. Monsieur son époux et messieurs
Her husband and
Ses enffants ne labandonne pas
ses enfants ne l'abandonnent pas.
children keep staying at her bedside.

-----

on ne seay qui atrapera la bourse
On ne sait qui attrapera la bourse
It is not known who will get her fortune
ou ses effaies qu'on raporte estre
ou ses effets qu'on rapporte etre
or her personal effects that are said to be
en bon n'ombre, il n y a que sa fille
en bon nombre, il n'y a que sa fille
many. There is just her daughter
quj n'ose l'aprocher, quoy que la
qui n'ose l'approcher, quoique la
who dares not approach her
Sayson l'ou est. Cette bonne dame
saison l'ou est. Cette bonne dame
at any time whatsoever. That good lady
d'oubt lobliger, ala rapeller auprest
dout l'obliger, a la rapeller aupres
is uncertain whether to oblige her by calling her
d'elle, de ce qui m'e consolle on m'a
d'elle. De ce qui me consolle, on m'a
to her side. What consoles me is that I was
assuré que m(onsieur) son exploux la
assuré que monsieur son époux la
assured that her husband
Sollicitte, et nostre messieurs ses
sollicitte, et notre messieurs ses
implores her and our masters her
enffants, de faire Le Rapel, et m(onsieur)
enfants de faire le rappel, et monsieur
children to remember her, and
Son directeur y faict de Son mieux
son directeur y fait de son mieux
his director is doing his best in this respect,
et je me persuade que vous feriez des
et je me persuade que vous feriez des
and I think you had
Mieux Sy vous estiez aupres d'elle
mieux si vous étiez aupres d'elle.
better be at her side.
je vous demande tousjours L'honneur
Je vous demande toujours l'honneur
I always beg you for the honour
de vostre amittié et suiz aussj bien
de votre amitié et suis aussi bien
of your friendship and also remain
Du Respect
du respect
respectfully yours,
Monsieur
Monsieur
Monsieur,
Vostre tres humble et tres ob(séqieux)
Votre tres humble et tres obséquieux
Your most humble and obsequious
Servitteur Bellvour x
Serviteur Bellvour x
servant Bellvour x



The lot having changed hands, whoever cares about old papers documenting the passage of time, enjoy!

Excellent work florian.

Regards,
Stampalotapus

Cheers, Stampalotapus!

The address is rather strange. Just try and search dictionaries and encyclopaedias. It runs as if you addressed a letter to Monsieur outside of and beyond la bouquetiere (with a grave accent above the last but one e) at la Bouqueture.

Who could have been la bernardiere (mind the small letter b and again with a grave accent above the last but one e) and what could have been la Bernardure? A woman selling St. Bernard dogs and a place where their kennels were found?

But chien du mont Saint Bernard is exemplified as late as 1837 and the headword Saint-Bernard as late as 1868 according to the Petit Robert Grand format dictionary.

There will be hardly any doubt that the letter was delivered by a private messenger in the know.

I have been jumping to hasty conclusions.

The words "bernardiere" and "Bernardure" do not appear in dictionaries but I have found
bernardin,e
(nom commun)

Religieux, religieuse de l'ordre de Saint-Benoît réformé par Saint-Bernard on http://dictionnaire.tv5.org/diction.../bernardin/1
which leads to "benedictine"
bénédictin,e
(nom commun)

Religieux, religieuse de l'ordre de saint Benoît.
{nom féminin} La Bénédictine
on the same link.

So "Monsieur dehors et dela bernardiere" might mean "one not belonging to the order of St. Bernard" and "a la Bernardure" might mean "at the abbey of the Benedictines" or perhaps "where the liqueure of benedictine was manufactured by the Benedictines".

Yeoman work, florian!