Shades & Colour Charts

Hi all

As collectors shades & colours become a battle with our advanced collections, the holes in our albums, hours of research into what may be, colour keys , charts, cross reference with existing stamps, every excuse a dealer can come up with as to why this is a definite, ultra violent lights, but plug on we do, in hope. As we all know the difference between a Salmon shade to a Pink is massive, but my question is who is the umpire & is there a way of really knowing. As im a Aussie ill use the 1d Red KGV for example, the specialists catalogue lists no fewer than 26 shades, with a value from $5 to $2,500, im sure im note alone when I say this is of great interest, but hang on, who has the final say & as run of the mill collectors , were can we turn for accurate imformation, or should we accept this to be to be part of the never ending story ?? The scan is an example of what I speak of, regards to all
Jezza

If there are 26 shades of red for that stamp ,first a scan or a printed picture can't pick up that many types to see the difference and I am sure most people eyesight can't see that many shades . We have to ask the question was there that many different printings and was each shippment of ink different ----I don't think so ! Shades are made from different amounts of water or oil added to the ink well on the printing press . Then you have to ask if moisture in the paper cause some shades , That also means did the ink dry fast or was the room humitity effect the drying . Light exposer would also added to this . As a collector I can help you with leaveing a few stamps in the sunlight some for 1 hour and others for 2 or 4 hours . I really question a lot of this shade types collecting . Some of this is due to different inks but really 26 different inks ?

In 1914 5 million penny red 1d stamps were printed.

Ultra Violet Long Wave Shade Reaction is the best way to understand this truly amazing area of stamp collecting. There is nothing else in the world to compare this issue to or with.

Chart supplied by Rod222.

This chart gives us an idea of the individual shade groups. Many shades belong to these separate shade groups.

Changeling & fadling are easily detected under UV light!

These type of shades, from changeling & fadling do not appear to be in the shade count or records.

Colors of classic issues are always a problem for the specialist. For the collector of U.S. or German stamps, expertizers are the "umpires" in determining colors. Expertizers have extensive experience in seeing stamps in their 'niche' of expertise - because of what they do, and they have reference collections of these stamps. I don't have knowledge of expertizing in Australia, but if it is like the U.S.A. and Germany, there are people who don't have a vested interest in selling you "rare" colors who are the acknowledged judges.

My experience with dealers at stamp shows is that what they are selling is almost always the more expensive or rarer type. If they don't know, they assume they have a better variety, and why not? So, I would say the best course of action is to build a reference collection for yourself by sending your questionable stamps to an acknowledged expertizer. Sometimes you can find interesting colors in cheap lots, but of course you can't expect to always find more desirable varieties in these lots because a specialist is likely to have already been through it. Also, rarer items are what they are. Luck and experience are important parts of the hunt.

Thx KGV Collector, & a great pic of the Salmon Eosin which helps me understand a little more. Shades,WM,s,Perfs,various grades of papers they've been printed on & variety, Mmmm back to the ACSC. Im going to post a unusual 1d red kgv shortly, hope to hear your thoughts

Regards to all
Jezza

Jezza, if you think you may have a very valuable issue it could be worthwhile having it confirmed by expertizing. However, your pain regarding color identification is, as bookbndrbob pointed out, also felt by those of us who collect older classic US. When I got serious about my US stamp collection, I suddenly found my art school education and more than 30 years dealing with graphic design, printing inks and color choices to be of little value. Despite my experience specifying printing colors, I find using words to describe the printed stamp color is treacherous territory. As mentioned previously, printing inks can oxidize in sunlight, or from exposure to chemicals like solvents. Printing press runs can vary in color intensity just by variables controlled by the press operator.

I take your point Dcaraz, & thank you for the input. The colour keys we use as guides, give themselves room as well,clearly stating these are guides only. After 30 yrs in the printing inks, & a collector , im hearing you loud & clear.
KGV collector was good enough to put up a pic of a very rare shade under uv, I spose If we think we have a real gem, that's the only way
Thx Jezza

Thx Bookbndrbob, I believe there is a few people in Aussie with these skills. Interesting to note that the expertizers you deal with have a reference collection & can physically show, not just tell, I visited a stamp dealer of 50 yrs recently & he had come across an extremely rare shade & was wanting to visit a total expert for verification, I think I know what that's telling me.

Regards Jezza

There is a growing group of Australia KGV penny red collectors that are saying there was a whole lot more experimenting done with the Eosin inks by the penny red printer of the day.

The school of thought on this is the Eosin's inks were mixed with other inks and many more Eosin shade are coming up as UV longwave shade detection becomes more popular.

There is a bunch of penny reds from paper wrappers(mainly) with a cancel from the Newcastle area. Last contact I had spoke of many 100's of these new half Eosin shade have been uncovered.

Something to look for when hunting through penny red lots. UV longwave shade detection is still in its infancy even though it has been around for quite a long time now.

A Dr Scott Starling is the penny red expertiser of today in Australia. He sells shades and offers certificates at very good prices. He did a group of articles on penny red shade detection with UV images as a guide. An amazing piece of penny red info for the penny red collector. It was printed in the "Australian Stamp Professional". I have been meaning to try and buy the back copies of this amazing many issue work.......

Shades that I can live with ,but getting into 42 different is pushing it ,these 6 are listed in Michel's but as you can see my scanner has a hard time showing the difference .

It is the real let down with stamping on line is that we can not get into shades. It just can not be done.The computer world changes the same image, to many different images, per computer.

This is a very thick ink print but it just does not show up even for my computer.

thx to all for the feedback
no wonder most albums, have places for 4 or 5 different shades visible to our eye. & as for long wave uv, it sounds a bit like the forensics of collecting (bring it on)

Jezza

Dcaraz was right on when he mentioned US classic collectors. In fact I'd beg to differ when it was stated earlier in the thread that there was nothing else in the world to compare this with.

The 3c 1861 US "workhorse" stamp of the Civil War Era has 54 documented shade varieties with major and minor Scott numbers of 64, 64a, 64b, 65, and then some that were downgraded to not be stamps but trial color proofs. Lots of misidentified #64 pinks on ebay and the elusive 64a, pigeon blood pink is a whole story to itself....many different shades are expertised as 64a, so even the experts don't agree on what is pigeon blood pink and what is not.....

Enjoyed reading this thread, and to all interested in shades, there are plenty of topics on the US classics board to pique your interest.....thanks to all!
Ray