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How Do You Check Watermark When A Stamp Is On Cover?

 
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Posted 09/02/2015   2:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add Stampalotapus to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I have always been curious as to how such is done in order to have certainty.

I presume it requires the stamp to be removed, but then what? Now it is no longer on cover!

Unless there's a way to check without removal, but I am not familiar with such a method.

Is it acceptable to re-affix, if possible?

Please advise.

Regards,
Stampalotapus
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Posted 09/02/2015   3:09 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Petert4522 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Stampalotapus, this has come up numerous times on this forum. Did you try the search function first?
The general concensus is that it is impossible to check for a watermark still on cover. It has to be at least partially lifted!

Peter
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Posted 09/02/2015   3:13 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Stampalotapus to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
You are correct, I have not performed a search.

I shall do so at this moment.

Regards,
Stampalotapus
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Posted 09/02/2015   4:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Stampalotapus to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Petert4522 I have performed various searches utilizing various phrases, but I do not seem to be able to find a related topic.

As for a partial lift I am concerned about causing creases in the stamp itself or upon the cover.

I have been estimating based on CDS whether the stamp has this or that watermark, but I know that such is not an accurate assessment of the item - so I am always left askance.

I had come to ask myself this question years back when I received a large lot of US Covers and there was a note from a previous owner on a specific cover that had a strip of 3 US Scott # 63's upon it.

His/her note stated that they lifted the stamp to check for grill and the re-affixed them to it.

Well whomever they were, they did an excellent job re-affixing because you could not tell that they totally removed the strip from the cover.

Since that time this question has always haunted me, more so when I come across items on cover that have the potential to have varying watermarks.

Regards,
Stampalotapus
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Edited by Stampalotapus - 09/02/2015 4:35 pm
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Posted 09/02/2015   4:47 pm  Show Profile Check GeoffHa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GeoffHa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The Morley Bright Roll-A-Tector is, I think, designed for stamps on covers (cf. the Insta-Tector for loose stamps).
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Posted 09/02/2015   5:01 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Stampalotapus to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
GeoffHa, I looked the device up - here's the description I found...


Quote:
Morley Bright Rollatector (Roll-a-tector) Watermark detector and 2 new sealed Sachets (total 3 sachets). Detect watermarks on stamps or covers. From Company Web Site: Using the same principle as our best selling watermark detector, the Inst-a-tector, this Morley Bright Roll-a-tector, uses a roller to reveal the watermark. The image of the watermark remains on the ink sachet until another stamp is tested therefore giving to viewer more time to establish the watermark. Can be used to look at watermarks on stamps which are still on cover. The Morley Bright system uses the fractional difference between watermarked areas of the stamp and the remaining area to show relief when the ink in the sealed sachet is dispersed by pressure leaving 'tell tale' watermark traces. Place stamp face down between the special 'ink'sachet then gently roll the stainless steel roller over the top of the sachet, making sure you apply an even pressure across the roller handle to reveal the watermark Stamps can also be tested when still on covers. If the first 'roll' does not reveal enough of the watermark, make sure the stamp is in the same position and roll again - the final result will remain in the sachet until you use the detector again, making it ideal for cross checking watermarks with your stamp catalogue.. When the unit is 'rolled' the special 'ink' within the sachet will flow into the watermarked section of the stamp, allowing you to clearly see the design of the watermark, whether its inverted, the position of crowns and scripts and other important watermark features. Can also be used on recess printed stamps, simply place the extra foil supplied with the detector underneath the stamp this helps to soak up the ridges on the stamp aiding detection. Watermark detector is supplied with a protective case to store the detector and instructions in English, and also a watermarked stamp which we would suggest you test when first using the detector to help you appreciate what you should be looking for.. No fluid comes into contact with the stamp, no batteries are required and the Roll-a-Tector fits neatly into your pocket.


It does state that it can detect such upon a stamp while on cover.

However, upon further searches I came across another Forum's thread where individuals state that it is hit or miss at best.

Regards,
Stampalotapus
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Posted 09/02/2015   5:03 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Petert4522 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Stampolatopus, the Morley Bright Roll-A-Tector that GeoffHa mentions above is spotty at best according to reports. Please Google "Morley Bright Roll-A-Tector" One of the results will send you to 'Stamporama". Go there and you will read a bunch of stuff on watermarks still on the cover!

Peter
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Posted 09/02/2015   5:06 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Petert4522 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
OK, you already found it. Go back and read my original statement. It is generally impossible to check for a watermark still on cover.
One of the things you should consider first, before you do anything. Is this stamp really worth lifting from the cover?

Peter
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Posted 09/02/2015   8:13 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jimjung to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Here's the link to when I asked the same question. I added the result of the scan. And the stamp is still on the cover !!

https://goscf.com/t/44113

But no watermark that I can see but you can see thru the stamp and recognize the weave in the paper. So I'll have to find another one to scan.
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Edited by jimjung - 09/02/2015 8:15 pm
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Posted 09/03/2015   2:13 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Stampalotapus to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
It is generally impossible to check for a watermark still on cover.
One of the things you should consider first, before you do anything. Is this stamp really worth lifting from the cover?


I agree with you on this point, that strong consideration must be done prior to any decision to lift a stamp from cover.


Quote:
Here's the link to when I asked the same question. I added the result of the scan. And the stamp is still on the cover!


I did locate the Stamporama thread, as well as this site's thread that jimjung was kind to provide the link to.

This leaves me with a lot to think about as to what steps I should take with current items in my collection that need definitive assessment, or to simply leave it as is.

I am curious though how this is done when APS, PSE, and the like perform expertizing for stamps on cover.

I am aware that they have accessible to them many advanced devices, but how did they do it before such devices were in use and available to them?

I believe that they possibly lifted the stamp and expertly re-affixed it.

But that seems,...

Well, not right to me that they would do such a thing.

I either have to acquire the Morley Brite or a scanner with advanced capabilities and try it or just leave well enough alone.

Regards,
Stampalotapus
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Posted 11/01/2015   4:41 pm  Show Profile Check Nells250's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Nells250 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I also didn't come up with any real good search results for this topic here. AND I also had this same question! :-)

My thought was, if the watermark is large enough, can you simply shine a good flashlight behind the stamp that is affixed to the cover?

I decided to try that theory, with pretty bad results.

As you can see below, using a light bulb to shine light through the stamp also gets you the envelope and cancels, making detection pretty darn tough. Using a flashlight didn't work due to the same reasons AND the blotchy effect of the flashlight's reflector.

Now, this is a stamp I don't know the watermark status of. If anyone has a watermarked stamp on cover they KNOW is watermarked, I dare you to try this technique.

(... and now I sit and await the comments about my silliness)

JD



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