German States 1863 Saxony Sc#17 Or Something Else? Please Help Me Determine?

I located this stamp in my very old germany collection of world stamps.

i could NOT locate this particular stamp in the photo attachment,but
did locate a "sister stamp" similar german states saxony sc#17.
mine has a hole punch in its center!

my question? is this german states 1863 saxony sc#17 or something else?

can anybody help me determine what this is??

It's postal stationery that's been cut from an envelope, so I don't think that you'll find it in any catalogue.

According to ebay UK it is Sachsen 1. A price of $14.00 is asked for the entire that I found, but it has not sold yet. I have no idea why there would be a hole in the cut out.

Peter

It IS listed in a catalogue & that is the Michel Ganzachen-Katalog Deutschland. It could be either Mi. U16 or U21 from 1863-67 depending on the type of "klappenstempel' (small embossed stamp) which is found on the envelope. Not only that, but each one is found in two sizes - 147:84 mm and 149:115 mm, the latter being much costlier.

My pre-historic catalogue has the envelopes valued used @ 35/30 Marks respectively so I'm guessing a buck or so for what you've got, particularly with that punch hole.

HOWEVER that postmark has numbers between 1-200 in the centre for the various post offices & some of them are catalogued in the thousands in the Michel German specialised so it might be worth honing in on that number to try & figure out what it is..

Opinion:
I would suggest that hole, has not been "punched" intentionally, or by a folder punch.

From past experience, my thoughts would go along 2 routes.

1. The central embossed section has been die punched too deep, and the
punch has cut the paper to depth where the central portion has eventually fallen out.

or
2. Persons unknown have physically cut out the central section for unknown reasons
(I have seen this occur on Canadian KG5 stmaps IIRC)

A high def scan of the edges of the hole, may offer further insight.

I agree with rod222, because I have seen German stamps from the early period (1872-1880) which have been embossed a little too strongly. The shield pieces in the middle of the stamps were cut through in several parts, although never completely like this one.

The piece looks a little shopworn. By rough handling through the mail, or by the recipient/owner the central oval could easily have been torn out if it were too strongly embossed.