Three More Fakes From NY Stamps

Three current ebay lots that are not genuine. I hope no one here is biding without getting an extension.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/351992198551/?rmvSB=true

http://www.ebay.com/itm/311811491352/?rmvSB=true

http://www.ebay.com/itm/311811488888/?rmvSB=true

I do not know anything about these but what is particular is not right?

The 2¢ listed as ultramarine is just a light blue. The two rouletted stamps were originally perforated and those were trimmed to imitate the rouletted variety. But the bottom of a perf still shows on the one and on neither do the roulettes gauge properly. Frankly NY Stamps is not the only ebay seller who tries to sell altered perforated stamps as these proprietary roulettes. If you want to own genuine roulettes, pay the price and buy them from a reputable dealer, Eric Jackson or Richard Friedberg.

I was going to ask why they were fake, but revenuermd answered my questions. The roulette on second and third stamp stamps is obviously uneven.

<sarcasm> But wait...I can get such a better deal from sellers like NY Stamps. While I do not have much US revenue experience I do trust my ability to sniff out a bargain. And while I don't bother with costly certs after I buy this material I know I am covered by ebay's return policy. Frankly I don't often find the need to use it since I just mount my purchases in my albums while congratulating myself on building a collection for a faction of catalog value. Are you suggesting that this is not the right approach for building a good collection?</sarcasm>
Don

Roulettes can be tough. Even reputable auction houses sometimes get them wrong. Look at lot 300.

https://siegelauctions.com/lots.php...y+28%2C+2017

While we're on the subject of fake roulettes, I thought I would submit what I have and ask the experts to weigh in.



Ron states that the roulettes on the fake ebay items gauge improperly.

Each one of these gauge roulette 6. The 4cent was identified by the PF as altered. However, the roulettes gauge 6. Obviously there must be some other telltale sign that it would be rendered a fake.

I believe it would be helpful to the rest of us if the pros can give their opinions on each one and why they would be fake or genuine.

Apparently the PF website sometimes can be of little help as in this example that has been certified genuine:



In my opinion this item is bothersome and was wondering if any others would share my concern.

revenuermd - it would be very helpful if you (and others recommending dealers) would also give their ebay seller names so we know who you're talking about.

Thanks.


I'd love to see a thread listing seller names (and real IDs) of reputable ebay sellers ..... and another listing of disreputable ebay sellers - like all the British Cartel sites. I've seen posts here that seem to indicate that apfelbaum, billsbargainstamps, and nystamps belong on the latter.

Fake roulettes are created by taking perforated stamps and removing every other perf, usually with a razor. This means that the spaces are usually unevenly spaced, are not level, and are too sharply cut (although they might be sanded later to look softer). It also means that they show no signs of having been separated, which genuine roulettes always show at least partially. The five stamps above are all fakes, with the 2 cent being particularly repulsive.

To be fair, I might have examined this stamp at the time but I am not sure (it would have been several years ago). Although the four cent has ragged margins, it does appear to show the proper separation, and for certain it was looked at under high magnification at the time.

Very disheartening, although I'm not surprised.

I was going to say that your opinion on the 6 cent surprised me. I did some research and found a similar item on the PF website with the same perf initial cancel that was deemed genuine. I guess I was fooled. I did a scan of the back and only now do I see that there are extra nubs on the right side.



Oh well, lesson (hopefully) learned.

That cert is about 20 years old.

Certificate 426941 would be circa 2005 and should have been seen by Brian Bleckwenn, a first issue revenue collector, with good general knowledge on the the later issues

Hi

There are three things to look for when examining rouletted stamps, proprietary or otherwise, to determine if they are genuine.

The first is obvious, to measure the gauge of the rouletting with a metric ruler.

The second is to measure the width of a normal perforated tip. That is, the width of the stamp paper that remains between the perforation holes. With the second-issue proprietary stamps perforated 12, this width is just about 1 millimeter. Then measure the same width of the remaining paper on a rouletted stamp's tip. If one or more tips is wider than 1 mm., the stamp almost certainly has to be genuinely rouletted. In the example stamp shown below, examine the width of the tips shown at the bottom right, and especially the first one at the top right. You simply can't get this wide of a tip from a perforated stamp. Perhaps one here or there with a "blind" perforated stamp, but not several.

Finally, there is an even better method that I learned from Eric many years ago. This is apparently not common knowledge. Kind of surprising no one has mentioned this.

In a genuine roulette, you might assume that, under magnification, you will see a horizontal (or vertical) "cut", then the tip, then a cut again. You would for sure see this if every other perforated tip had been trimmed off. But look closer. There should be a tiny "divot" or notch that goes into the stamp body, just before the tip. By tiny, I mean very, very, very tiny. May not even see it on every cut. So, on a genuine roulette, it's actually: cut, notch, tip, notch, cut, etc.

See the roulettes on the left side of the example stamp shown below. May have to enlarge the image.

Any suspected rouletted stamp that is missing these two criteria is almost certainly fake.

Using this information, it is clear that 1typesetter's one cent stamp is definitely genuine, and the two cent is definitely fake. Once you get used to knowing what to look for, you don't necessarily even need to see them in person.

Hope that this helps.

Jim

It might even be 2004, which would still make it 13 years old. There is no doubt that Brian saw it at the time, and in my opinion his knowledge is rather better then just "good" on almost any area of US stamps. My point was just to compare it to the other cert, which he also saw.

The problem with using the spacing between roulettes vs. the spacing between perfs is that perfs can (and usually are) cut down to create fakes. I NEVER use a perf gauge on revenue roulettes, nor have I ever seen any other acknowledged expert do so. Cutting every other perf from a perf 12 creates a fake roulette 6. By an unhappy coincidence the proprietary roulettes are gauge 6. The trick is too look at and for those characteristics that I wrote about above.

Opinions on this item? RB18c

Jim