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1c 1857 Plate 5 Stamps

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Posted 05/08/2018   8:35 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add txstamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Plate 5 of the One-Cent stamp of the 1857 issue is a very interesting plate.

It produced all of the Type Va stamps.
It also produced Ty V.
Both of the above types are Scott #24, but there is a premium for Ty Va.

Ty Va has no side scratches and has more complete ornaments at the right than Ty V.

The Earliest Known Use from Plate 5 is December 2, 1857.

It is immediately apparent that this plate is unusual, from looking at the Neinken book and noting that Two transfer rolls are listed as having been used to enter this plate: Transfer roll #3 and #4.

The plate was entered, starting with the 10R column first, as usual. The right pane was entered, with what is termed Roll #3. This was a six-relief transfer roll, which contained six Ty Va reliefs on it. Next the 10L to 7L columns were entered, also with Roll #3. As one moves farther left on the printed sheet (inverse from the plate), in the 10L to 7L columns, it becomes apparent that there is something significant going on with the transfer roll, as there are gradual changes in the designs.

Finally, the 6L to 1L columns were entered, with what is termed Roll #4, also a six relief roll, but this had side-scratches on the B-C and D reliefs, and all produced Ty V stamps, except the A relief appears to have remained Ty Va.

What really happened during the making of this plate? No-one knows for sure; the two transfer roll idea mostly fits what is observed, but there is probably more to the story as usual.

The Ty Va stamps made Ashbrook think that a different plate with must have been in use exclusively for them, thus he deemed it Plate 6.
See this thread: http://goscf.com/t/61515
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Edited by txstamp - 05/08/2018 8:36 pm

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Posted 05/08/2018   8:46 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply



This block is positions 8-9-10L5 18-19-20L5, including the centerline.

This is a photograph taken by Ashbrook of the block in 1957.
This block at the time was in the collection of Edgar Jessup, who had sent it to Morris Fortgang to plate it.

This block is used.

I found this photo, in a stack of old correspondence that I came into, from Edgar Jessup's estate -- I believe via Ezra Cole. I'm busy slowly sorting through these letters, and a few photos. Needless to say, when I saw this photo, I was pretty much floored, as was Fortgang, who described himself as "drooling" over this.
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Posted 05/08/2018   9:20 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rlmstamps2012 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you Winston, #24 Type Va x three, 1R5, 41R5, and 81R5!

Edit; txstamp, I meant last night to thank you for sharing that interesting information. While posting my cover I simply forgot.
I can understand why Fortgang was "drooling". I am sure there are many of us on this forum that are doing the same!


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Edited by rlmstamps2012 - 05/09/2018 10:50 am
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Posted 05/14/2018   09:28 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I am pretty sure that this stamp is 100R5, Ty Va.
It is a bottom-row stamp - note the plating mark in the A of POSTAGE.
Ex Neinken.

It exhibits the unusual so-called "wide" perforation spacing. This perforation anomaly is also occasionally found in the top and bottom row of Plate 4, and a few other Ty V 1c plates occasionally.



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Posted 06/11/2018   8:37 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add dudley to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Got the following from a prominent dealer at the recent NAPEX show. Sold as a Type V pair, and a very nice one. The positions are 87-88R5, making it a Type Va-Type V combination pair (the only Type V positions on the right pane of Plate 5 are 85, 86, 88 and 89). Sorry I can't provide a nice scan. The left stamp shows the very heavy mark in the N of CENT as illustrated in Neinken for 87R5 (p. 359).


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Edited by dudley - 06/11/2018 8:39 pm
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Posted 06/11/2018   11:30 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Dudley - congrats, nice going.

That's an interesting right pane location for the reason you state.
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Posted 10/09/2018   3:04 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add dudley to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Here's a hi-res scan of the 87-88R5 pair:


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Posted 10/09/2018   3:18 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
That pair looks like it is or was on a 2c printed circular going from New Orleans to France based upon what I can see of the markings.
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Posted 10/18/2018   10:49 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add dudley to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Here is what I take to be 56L5, based on the blurs and blisters marked with red arrows. Interestingly, the Neinken drawing does not show what would appear to be prominent scratches in the left margin (purple arrows). Perhaps he did not have access to a copy with a left margin.


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Posted 12/06/2018   5:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add dudley to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Here's an interesting group I recently acquired. It consisted of three separate singles, but it was evident from the cancels that they originally came from the same cover. The perforations match up exactly to a one-time vertical strip of three, Reliefs B, C and D (one cannot tell whether they were separated before being attached to a cover or after they were soaked off). I can plate the B Relief as 11L5 and the D Relief as 31L5, so the other is undoubtedly (?) 21L5. This position is not included in the Doporto Archive and is listed by Neinken as having no plating marks, but this copy at least shows distinct pitting marks in the left margin (see second image). Can any One-Cent specialists out there confirm these marks as identifying 21L5?






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Posted 12/08/2018   02:39 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jaxom100 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Dudley, here is a photo of 21L5 taken by Ashbrook in the 1950's. It is part of a strip 21-31-41L5. It was labeled incorrectly as plate 6. I would say that you are correct, it is position 21L5.



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Posted 12/08/2018   1:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It is certainly true that the overall shape and apparent wear of the ornaments all around on Fortgang's (MF) 21L5 matches dudley's quite well. I don't know that there is enough left margin or a high-enough quality photo (Ashbrook's) to discern the marginal markings.

jaxom - nice find. From the Classics Society website?
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Posted 12/08/2018   1:45 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jaxom100 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, that is where I found it. Actually, the photos are about 2400dpi. I had to resize them at 50% to post them. Same thing with the plate 7, columns 3-10, the images are about 2400dpi. Since they are photos, it is approximate, but I treated them as such since the sizes are close. The plate image was reduced to 200dpi. The photo images are real good. Some had to be lightened a bit. There are some interesting multiples in those Ashbrook binders.
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Posted 12/08/2018   2:40 pm  Show Profile Check ray.mac's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add ray.mac to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Guys, look at the lower left plume and on both the diagram and stamp there are two small dots or dashes where the left outline of the plume would be. Looks like an exact match....
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Posted 12/08/2018   10:01 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add dudley to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks, jaxom and ray. Looks good for 21L5.
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Posted 12/10/2018   09:00 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jaxom100 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
For those of you like collect the types V & Va from plate 5, here is a block of 16 from plate 5, photographed by Ashbrook in 1955. It looks to be a bottom row piece. There are also a few more attached to the left top of this block. I have not tried to plate it, but it could be useful information. These appear to be from the left pane, type V. I found the top part of the block photographed and plated by Ashbrook. That would make the block 62-66L5 -- 92-96L5.


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Edited by jaxom100 - 12/11/2018 08:45 am
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