Is This A Genuine Mint #12?

The design looks weird upper left. Is it a genuine 12? Is it a proof? It does have gum.

The top and bottom projections appear drawn in.

This was probably made from a proof from Plate 2 which doesn't have those...

I agree about the drawn in aspect.

In addition, from the images of the stamp, there look to be many colored areas intersecting the white medallion frame; near ear on left, UL of hair, 2 spots next to hair at UR, R of eyes, R of throat. So then perhaps a used type II made into an imperf. This then should be examined in watermark fluid.

The scan of stamp in tongs also shows the bottom projection in a clearly different color than the stamp or top projection.

A very very long time ago, there was actually someone in Europe who was purportedly taking India proofs, and thickening up the paper on them by adding pulp somehow. Then they would gum them. This smells like that to me - but, whatever it is, its not a real #12.

Tang,
Where did this stamp come from?
Don

Thanks everyone!

I purchased it from a dealer and then I feel uncomfortable about it. I think I am going to return it. I think it's not worth it to send it to PF for a cert, right? There is no chance for it to be a genuine #12. Correct?

Or real gum, either.

No chance genuine.

usually, how much is the proof? I paid only $200 for this one. It should be an alarm.

If it were a genuine 12, it would be worth around $10,000, so the dealer knew it wasn't genuine. If he told you otherwise, he committed fraud. A sound example of the proof, 42P3, should bring around $50. This one is faulty, so it is worth much less. Get a refund if you can and stay away from that dealer. Unfortunately, your local DA is too busy to prosecute him.

Tang could share the name of the dealer as a way to give something back to this community which has helped him get his business off the ground (and already saved him time and money).
Don

i agree with don on this one. the dealer should not remain nameless even if an adjustment or refund is given.

Should certainly be returned, but impossible to prove fraud anyway. One word against another and a dealer has too many outs. Especially at $200. All he has to claim is that he said it was a spacefiller, go prove he didn't. If it was thousands it wouldn't work; the dealer would just claim he was fooled too. As long as he takes it back and refunds the money there is little else that can be done. But he should be named.

Guys, firstly I want to thank you for your opinion on this. But I don't want to name anyone since I don't believe there is any fraud. The price is very low because the seller was not sure about the genuineness and he probably got it dirt cheap. Honestly, I bought it for resale, but it is just my habit to be certain about what I am selling. If there is any doubt on the genuineness, I will ask.an expert or get a cert.

Tang,
No one said there was fraud. It would only be fraud if it was sold intentionally misidentified and intent can be very hard to prove. Intent becomes more apparent if there is a trend such as a seller repeatedly selling misidentified material.

And in fact, if the seller works with you on a return then this would actually result in reflecting well on the seller. Any transaction can go badly. If it goes badly, there is still plenty of opportunity for a seller to make things right and show they are a quality seller. It is only when a seller fails on several levels that it reflects badly upon them. We all know really good sellers who have misidentified items; we are all human and make some mistakes. But real measure of a quality seller is how they react to the situation. And sellers who are willing to resolve issues are exactly the type of seller that the rest of the community would like to hear about; it helps us make informed buying decisions. We want to know about sellers who stand behind what they sell and are willing to resolve mistakes when they make them.

But let's stop playing games here. You previously named a seller (Anthony's) but then found out they blocked you. So you then asked the Mods to remove entire threads. I was not willing to delete entire threads because other community members had invested their time in replying and trying to help you; the threads also stood on their educational value. So you then started a new, second SCF account name (against the rules). This allowed you to get valuable feedback when you had purchased questionable material but no one would know that it was you or one of your suppliers. That dog was not going to hunt.

I realize that the overwhelming number of your posts have been to ask for help in getting your business off the ground. And there are no rules that require anyone to 'give back' or help the community. But in my opinion those folks who show good faith, are reasonably transparency, and contribute to the community, are looked upon favorably by many buyers and hobbyists.
Don