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I Have A Stamp That Should Not Have These Marks If Anyone Has A Idea Help Me Out

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Posted 08/27/2018   2:11 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add Dan Townsend to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hello everyone.
I have a head scratch .
I bought this stamp on eBay last week and I cant figure out why these grills are on it .
I checked out when grills were made and why, but this stamp was made 20 some years past that date.
Here's the picture let me know if you have a reason for this.
Maybe fraud maybe a mistake who knows.
Thanks Dan

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United States
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Posted 08/27/2018   2:18 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Petert4522 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Since this is a revenue stamp it could be a cancel

Peter
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Posted 08/27/2018   2:53 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Companies often used an embossing device over the $ amount of checks, drafts, promissory notes, etc., as a security device against alterations. Here is an earlier example than yours:





On your example, the blue ink is the cancel, the embossing is damage or an interesting bonus, depending on your perspective - perhaps an additional attempt by the user to further tie the stamp to the document, which was likely a promissory note taxed in proportion to the amount of the note.
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Posted 08/27/2018   4:10 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Dan Townsend to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
If it was a cancel wouldn't you see more of this . If it was used on a bank note why would it also be used on a stamp, wouldn't you see more of it maybe you do ?.Also wouldn't it also confuse people collecting stamps thinking it was grilled,and wouldn't you see more of them, just asking good thoughts ?
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Posted 08/27/2018   4:45 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Welcome.
The stamp and revenue document were both cancelled, only needed to cancel part of the stamp.

Grills were applied at time of manufacture to prevent reuse once sold for postage. Your revenue stamp was cancelled after being used.
Don
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Posted 08/27/2018   5:30 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Dan Townsend to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
How many times have you seen this type of canceling on a stamp if that was the case wouldn't you see more of it done. I think it was a accident and you are right it was done by a bank or you might see a lot of people using that device to turn a five dollar stamps to a 500.00 stamp maybe.
it all sounds great!
Thanks for the incite.
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Posted 08/27/2018   6:06 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Dan,
You may be missing the point. Please reread my previous post and study the images. There is only superficial resemblance between the grilled postage stamps of c1870 (applied during stamp manufacturer to prevent reuse) and the grilled security feature rolled on fiscal document (applied by the end user to prevent alteration of the $ amount). The document security griller occasionally "got" the revenue stamp also. The grill on the revenue stamp should not fool any collector as there is no intent to deceive or the create a rarity. Most revenue stamp users were careful and did not run the security griller over the stamp - just the written amount, so these are not overly common, but like a "cut cancel" on a revenue stamp it is considered damaged by most collectors and worth less than an ink-canceled copy.
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Posted 08/27/2018   6:34 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Dan Townsend to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Great to know all these facets in the making of a stamp collection .
I also think by measuring the impressions you could maybe tell what tool it came from.
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Posted 08/27/2018   7:05 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
In machinists parlance, this image is known as "knurling"
Generally used on steel in circumstances where purchase is required on a smooth surface.
The revolving end of a micrometer, for instance.

Sometimes, on Australian stamps and covers, a similar indentation can occur, caused by the automatic drive of the Facer / Canceller.
The example on the cheque is obviously punched.

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Edited by rod222 - 08/27/2018 7:10 pm
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Posted 08/27/2018   8:19 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Dan Townsend to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Ok the more I look at this stamp unless the law of physic is way off in order to have this stamp grilled this way, It could only be made from the inside out.Meaning the stamp had to be grilled before it was on the envelope or on the back side of the envelope. Question would it actually go through the envelope and make a mark and why on the back side.?
Look how clean the edges are on the inside of the stamp and dull on the outside of my photo .And then look at John Becker photo of a envelope and the grill up top of this page, also he did it on the side he wanted to cancel.
Maybe it was a accident but I would like to see a stamp like this to see if others were done ,crazy isn't it.
If stamp collecting is all about finding mistakes that makes a difference and why not,that is what makes it fun.
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Posted 08/27/2018   8:39 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Dan,
Stop. One correction. Your stamp was NOT on an envelope. It was on a financial/legal document. (And physics always works.)
Also, due to space concerns, revenue stamps are occasionally put on the back side of a document and thus would get a reversed embossing - and that would be one of the most logical ways to get the security embossing on your stamp ... that it was on the back of the financial document directly behind the area where the amount was written/grilled on the front and coincidentally got hit. Or of course it is possible, the grilling machine at the business could have been set-up to impress points-up instead of points-down. There is really no way to know.
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Posted 08/27/2018   10:35 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Dan Townsend to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
You could explain away is was a document, but I would think the same is true if you want to cancel a stamp you would want to see it for kunrling machine go blinded would be hard there for it wouldn't be seen in the back of the document so you want to get it right and straight so why the back you ?.The embossing would need to be clean so you could tell this stamp was canceled .The way they did it you can hardly tell it was canceled
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Posted 08/27/2018   11:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I don't know what you are wanting us to tell you. Your stamp is no longer on the original document. I have no more explanations or guesses. Good luck.
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Posted 08/28/2018   12:55 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add raymodj to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
the way they did it you can hardly tell it was canceled-


The stamped ink on the front is the cancel. The embossing is incidental.
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Posted 08/28/2018   12:32 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Dan Townsend to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
So your right about the ink in the front is the cancel but I don't understand how it would or why it was embossed.
If there was one there would have to be others maybe unless it was a freak or accident.
How could you find examples or the way they did this process for a document .If it was a document wouldn't you have a folded letter sealed so no body could see the document if so I don't know if the embossing would go through a document too ,maybe, or was this embossing used to cancel the stamp too? Lots of question, I hope you guys don't think I'm nuts but I like a good mystery.
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Posted 08/28/2018   12:59 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
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