The Philatelic Foundation - Determined Value On Certs

The "dream" does live in ebay but takes some effort and lots of care. A story like this is an exception (my first with PF as mentioned in OP) My other glory story is a graded 1930's airmail stamp at 100 by PSE.( $50 bid plus cert fee now = smq of around $1500+). Lots and lots of heartache too. Like I said in the OP I know about the $1 ref copy issue all too well!

To be clear I HIGHLY RECOMMEND PF.org for Certs!

The PF has always used the Scott Catalogue value as the starting point for valuing submitted items. They will adjust up when an item is sold at auction for significantly over catalogue value. To do otherwise would require the manpower to sit down and determine the individual value for each submitted item. They are not dealers and do not buy and sell stamps, so to expect them to accurately price each item that comes in for a certificate is unfair. To avoid disagreements they use an arbitrary figure which is available to the submitter. They have recently lowered their charges for maimed stamps, but this does not happen often. This is their system, if you use them you have to expect it. I bought a stamp from Kelleher for $220 versus a cat value of $1,750 and paid $96.00 for a certificate. I knew this going in, but the stamp was an uncommon variety and merited a certificate it also required outside help to verify the variety which they did use causing them additional expense.

Complaining about their system is a little like complaining about the price to buy a new car when a car could have been bought from Rent-a-Wreck for less.

Wtcrowe thx for the color and your experience that points to "that's how it is" so move on vote. To limit any doubt, to the displeasure of some, I was trolling for insight to see if it was worth my time to complain.

Understood CV by default but fair is the market value based on market facts. My transaction represent that generally with a few outliers. Your case I assume the $220 was paid knowing it might not pass a cert and it sounds like special handling applied so I think the fee in your case is in fact fair. Not apple to apple but helpful to know.

It has always seemed to me that certification cost should reflect the amount of time and resources needed for a particular stamp. The 'catalog based' pricing seems to open the door to potential loses for an organization. Deltas exist not only between stamps designs but also stamp-to-stamp.

Hypothetical Scenario #1
Stamp A catalog value of $5000 and takes 5 minutes to ID. Stamp B also has a catalog value of $5000 but takes 8 hours to ID.

Hypothetical Scenario #2
Two used stamps with the same catalog number, different cancels, catalog value of $2500. Stamp #1 takes 10 minutes, one expert, no additional equipment or materials; a date cancel makes IDing the stamp easy. But because of an obscuring cancel, Stamp #2 takes 6 hours, 3 experts, and additional equipment and materials.
Don

Don

Great point so add that to the whims of the world of a CV and this a just a big debate to learn and PF gets to make the final call. That's a world I'm okay with.

I hope this open discussion on this issue did no harm to PF.org stellar 100 plus year reputatio as the leading legal non profit for the hobby.

Thank you for hoasting and monitoring this information sharing community and your brilliant work at stampsmarter.

ALL of the expertizing companies base their fees as a percentage of catalogue value. Not ebay values, not "I think it's only worth this" values. Those are the terms you agree to when submitting items. I would argue that lowballing the values when submitting just because you don't agree with the catalogue values is not appropriate.

Using catalogue values is the only way to realistically implement a uniform published pricing list for expertization. Don's suggested approach, while likely more accurate, would require one to get a quote for expertizing before sending anything in, and that's not a viable model.

One can argue that the percentages are too high and that it doesn't factor in the condition of the item where due to flaws an item is worth nowhere near catalogue value, but that is a different discussion.

The PF (and PSE I think as well) have in recent years launched programs with reduced expertizing fees for high-catalogue items with condition issues, thus making it viable to have them expertized.

My ebay purchase is a market transaction flashing true market value. This data is the Best indication of true value so robotically filling in a CV Is not tenable as a consumer expecting a fair transaction (i.e., a fee of 5.5% on value) so I will continue my methods that have worked fine. As a particle matter 80% of my modest submission are clearly worth less then the 500 bucks so this point is not even applicable to those items so I could use a DV of anything between 10 bucks and 500 gets to same fee.

Wow. Just wow.

Hi Redtail,

My own thought on the issue that you've had with the Foundation is that perhaps it would be simpler to consider Scott catalog value for any given stamp to be analogous to the manufacturer's suggested list price for any other product.

With most products, of course, very few people actually pay the list price. That's not to say that a seller might try to ask that amount (or more).

But there's probably not a single thing listed on Amazon for example that actually sells for full list price.

A catalog value is like the starting price point for any other product, before discounts, promo codes, coupons, and the like are considered.

With all the variables involved with "valuing" a certain stamp on a certain venue at a certain time in a certain condition and so on, the only reliable value that a service provider like the Foundation can effectively use is the most popular and trusted valuing system in effect at the time.

Years from now it may be someone else, but for the last several decades at least it's been the Scott catalogs.

Jim

Jim

Thank you for your thoughts on this matter. I plan to pay the fee soon and not fuss over this point with them given they drive the bus here and it "is what it is' I feel vetting this with the community first vs just rolling over and paying was a good way as a consumer to educate myself. If I just called PF and said " hay Betsy thx for the FedEx package but I was over charged and want a refund now let me tell you why....." I would have gained this deep understanding of issues around DV for the Foundation and the service in general.

I'm also paying because I have start to focus on my next Foundation package as I received my first SANs related Invoice moments ago!

You're actually experiencing something that can be "seen" in real numbers, whether in a catalog or otherwise.

I somewhat envy that.

Much of what I collect, if it is listed in a Scott catalog (or other) at all, is "valued" with just a dash.

Imagine trying to determine what fee you should pay, based on having no value at all to go off of!

Jim

Jim

Call first before submitting to set fee!

My wife has no patience for this stuff but when I recap my issue in the mandatory 2 senstences or less. She said "that sounds like the Fox (PF) watching the chicken coop (customer)" by setting the price for the service. I thought this was a good lay persons recap of how one might feel about my case.

I have found the Foundation services are run very professionally and overall I'm a happy satisfied customer knowing my stamps are genuine and without faults and generally fees are fair for professional services rendered out high operating cost NYC.

Redtail:
Your statement that the purchase price on E-Bay is a true indication of value is not entirely correct. If you have purchased via an E-Bay auction then that is the value of your item on that day on that venue. On a different venue such as a Robert Siegel Auction with different buyers there might be a different final price. I have been the underbidder on one auction only to find the item on a different auction for less money due to different buyers.
If you have purchased the item at the "Buy it Now" price your statement might be more accurate. The prices in the stamp market have always been fluid. There will always be dealers buying items at auction that they feel are undervalued on that day. I purchased a scarce copy of an WWII Airmail book on E-bay for $6.00 plus shipping that others offer on E-Bay for $75.00 or more. Does that mean my book is worth $6.00? Or is it worth more?

I have to apologize to Redtail, as in going back and reading the terms on the PF's expertizing form verbatim, they are their own worst enemy in terms of the wording they use. They use "submitted value" rather than "catalog value" which opens the door for submitters to value their items as they see fit. The PF uses the term "catalog value" with respect to the tiers for high-cat items with flaws, but for normal expertization service, they never state that items must be valued per any specific catalog or lack thereof.

So, value as you see fit.

Really having a hard time with this thread...the discussion doesn't seem even remotely relevant.

If you go to get a professional service, they offer their service for a price. You have a choice to proceed or not, based on that price.

The PF offers a service, at a price. They charge based on a % of CV. Whether that's good / bad / fair / unfair is irrelevant. If you're not happy with it, go elsewhere...

You're more than welcome to argue with them & try to negotiate a lower fee. I don't see why your case is special; I would guess many stamps are submitted that had low purchase prices, relative to CV.

If they agree, great!

That would prove they're not a very savvy 'business' enterprise, which is an understatement! But they've never professed to be a 'for-profit' business - and in fact, are not supposed to be...