The Philatelic Foundation Grading Upgrade

The point is posting about other's intentions. I do not understand your point; in a previous post I made it abundantly clear that folks can collect whatever they want.

I have always been 'Moderator' consistent, folks can post whatever opinion they want. If they want to post about hinging stamps with modern tape, it is fine. But do not push back when others post that it is experimental.

If folks post about always keeping stamps on a cover; no problem. But do not push back when others point out that doing this requires additional conservation.

Threads in a public forum should reveal all sides of an issue. We work hard to keep things fair and balanced. I wish I could get everyone to start most posts with 'In my opinion...' so their opinions do not come across as hard facts. We have a very large number of folks who lurk, and what we post may be read for decades to come.

But when people start in with posting about the intentions of others we are well into the weeds.
Don

Don - With all due respect "a bunch of crap" is assuming that everyone who does not think that grading "is a cancer" has a vested interest in said grading. Just as you take exception with my previous post and my not being able to see inside somebody's head as far as their motivations for disliking grading you cannot see inside my head and make assumptions as to why I am defending grading. The assumption is incorrect.

For the record I do not collect graded stamps for their grading and they make up only a percentage of my collection. I add stamps that appeal to me and guess what? Graded stamps are becoming the norm when buying from quality dealers. Look at a Rupp or Century or similar dealer's lists of stamps for sale and you will find lots and lots of graded stamps. I buy the best that I can afford and now, depending upon the item, the XF that I used to buy might be Grade 90 or 95. Big deal. I accept them and I defend their place in our hobby, nothing more than that.

What makes no sense is calling grading in general a cancer because a multiple has been damaged. Talk about overheated and unjustified rhetoric.

'a bunch of crap' was not an assumption at all. Reread what I wrote, I said that your post about other's intentions was a bunch of crap (and it is).

I have not made any assumptions. Nor have I said anything about it being a cancer (and even if I had it would have been an opinion, has nothing to do with an intention). I have not said one single thing about your intentions, go back and read my posts and show me a single place I questioned your intentions. The statement I made was that people who are defending grading in this thread have vested interest, which is a fact and not an intention.

You seriously need to stop digging the hole you are in with me and reacting to the other troll posts (and confusing those posts with what I have posted).

This thread has gone on for 15 pages and all we have is strong feelings on two sides of the topic. We all know and understand that you are fine with grading. just as the others, you guys have invested in graded stamps. So obviously you support them. But in my opinion your recent posts have added nothing significant and come across to me as being defensive. Please note that if you have your methods and discovery for the work you did regarding the frequency of multiple breakups I would love to see it posted. this is a very difficult thing to gather data on and any real discovery efforts would be exactly the kind of posts which help the community. (As opposed to crap about other peoples intentions.)
Don

Correlation isn't causation. Counting the multiples that have been broken up does nothing to show that grading has anything to do with it. High-quality singles are popular. Are they popular because of grading? No. Grading came about BECAUSE high-quality singles (and multiples) are popular and collectors wanted a standard to judge their quality. And nobody notes that multiples are graded too - grading is neutral to singles vs. multiples.

Grading came about because certain people noted it from the coin world and wanted to get it into stamps. It was strictly a money making scheme from the beginning. It was not a collector driven idea, there was no groundswell of collectors begging for it. For over 100 years until then collectors had been perfectly fine with the methods used to determine centering and condition. Most collectors still are.
Most here only see dealers when they are actually buying material; some of us have far more exposure then that. Some of us are around dealers regularly. We see and hear what goes on before shows open because we sometimes work shows.

accept that grading is here to stay, weather numerical or descriptive as in the past. the value of any item or stamp or cover, weather common or rare is only what the purchaser is willing to pay, or the profit that a buyer hopes to get on resale. weather an item is in good condition and common or scarce and damaged, collect what you will, spend what you want and respect that others have differing standards. new and old alike should avail themselves to learn about the areas they are interested in. for the record I am anti numerical grading and have been from it's start.

... where they were at a disadvantage. The dealer could say just about any self-serving thing about the condition a stamp - and the frequency at which that stamp is seen in that condition - and the collector had no ready recourse.

Stunningly, unexpectedly, go figure, collectors raced to a solution: a third party opinion by an agency that saw just as many high-end stamps as the dealer.

Whodathunkit?

Cheers,

/s/ ikeyPikey

recourse is gained by experience and educating one's self. building relationships with dealers over time is as important as learning about the area you collect. opinions are just that, weather yours or a third party's. both dealers and expert committees see a lot more material and have access to better references than most collectors. enjoy collecting as a hobby and any way you see fit that does not denigrate others.

I heard this comment years ago-- "Is this Very Fine?". The answer was "Are you buying or selling?"

"a third party opinion by an agency that saw just as many high-end stamps as the dealer".

With a vested financial interest in the outcome in the case of PSE, who started the grading craze. And they did NOT see as many stamps as any dealer, high end or otherwise, since they only saw those that were sent to them and they came out of the coin world. Dealers see many thousands of stamps every year that they do not own over and above their stock. The average show dealer sees at least 20 times as many stamps a year as PSE, and probably a lot more then that.

"The average show dealer sees at least 20 times as many stamps a year as PSE, and probably a lot more than that." = nonsense.

PSE certifies at least 20K stamps per year based on the minimum and maximum cert numbers each year just in my collection. Based on the same sampling, the PF certifies more than 8K per year. I bet PSE certifies twice as many as the PF. AND the same people often certify for both groups (and the APS for that matter) - AND they are often dealers themselves (though not "average" ones.)

Does the average dealer closely examine 60 difficult stamps per day every day for years? - that's what they would have to do to keep up with PSE. The "average dealer" is usually wrong on identifying valuable stamps by scott number and basic soundness unless it has a cert. Dealers are TERRIBLE at it - even well-known, reputable dealers. Maybe 80% of the valuable stamps I buy from dealers that don't have a cert are not what they say the stamp is. This is why third-party certification is needed. And grading is just an extra descriptor on some certs.

Some dealers are terrible and some dealers are very good. NOW PSE looks at a lot of material; it did not start out that way. And a lot of it are common stamps just in for grading. And PSE is far from perfect; their knowledge of revenues is not very good except for the most well known rarities, for example. That's why certain dealers prefer to use them over the PF. The average show dealer in US material looks at every auction containing US, plus whatever they see at shows before they open, plus whatever they find out about on the outside.

That's a lot of lots ... and, mind you, we all seem to agree that the photos they are looking at do not show enough detail to properly grade the stamps ... and, of course, they are looking at price estimates ... unless we are going to claim that (t)he average show dealer in US material looks at every lot and every price realized at every auction containing US".

What a diligent bunch!

Its a wonder they have time to also identify stamps, manage inventory, complete sales, update websites, attend shows, visit widows'n'orphans ...

Cheers,

/s/ ikeyPikey

Dealers with good reputations can have lots sent to them beforehand to view, they don't have to depend on photos. And that includes large lots. Since most dealers know what they can sell and have a chance at buying, it usually does not take too long to go through a catalog to know which lots they are interested in. And price realized are easy to see during and after auctions, viewing them takes 10 minutes.

Which is kinda my point: dealers skim auction catalogs and, then, they skim large collections ... that is really not the same level of attention to individual stamps that a TPG service would give to teasing out 90 vs 95 vs 98.

Cheers,

/s/ ikeyPikey