The Philatelic Foundation Grading Upgrade

Sorry, but that is wrong. Dealers have years, often decades of experience in looking at lots. The good ones know quickly exactly what they are looking at and for in their areas. I have done auction viewing and I have worked auction viewings; I have watched the good ones in action.

The good ones? That's a good one.

You don't think that there are knowledgeable dealers out there? That there are people who know how to look at a stamp, or a group or large lot and actually know what they are looking at?

Of course there are knowledgeable dealers. That's their game, information.

It's hardly rocket science though. Any collector can invest the time. Heck even catalog study can get you pretty far.

Ikey, I agree with revcollector, the best might look like they're skimming, but they're actually really focussed and practiced at evaluating stamps including disorganized messes. Time is money, as the old saw goes. None had/have "photographic memory" that I'm aware of and I've known a couple of people outside of stamps that had that ability; they are just really good at what they do.

Yes, not rocket science, rismoney. But revcollector made the point earlier that abilities run the gamut in the dealer world even with decades of experience. True dat. I haven't seen that kind of speed and focus in collectors viewing lots. All you have to do is attend viewing and the floor auction and see who wins what. It's those practiced dealer "speed evaluators" that are the winners/buyers over the average dealer and most every collector except perhaps for highly specialized items. And they still have to sell what they buy for a profit. So why all those losing collectors? For the old collectors with great experience in their specialty and buying at auction, it seems they are often stuck in thinking that (say) an item was worth $100 30 years ago and is worth no more today.

"Any collector can invest the time. Heck even catalog study can get you pretty far".

Sure, any collector can invest a couple of decades learning. Catalog study is essential, but FAR less important then seeing hundreds of thousands of stamps. Most people do not know the catalog nearly as well as they think they do. How many have actually read the first 80 pages of information in the front? How often does the average collector have to go look in the index to find an item that is outside their usual collecting areas? If you think that all you need is "catalog study" to be able to look at large lots, you have never really looked at large lots. Just to be able to accurately estimate the amount of postage in a large lot is a skill that takes time and effort to learn.

Perhaps. "Most people" is a somewhat loaded and irrefutable amount. Most people don't collect stamps. Most stamp collectors don't buy at auction. Most stamp collectors don't like grades. Most don't know a 233 from a 233a. Most don't spend $1000+ a stamp.

I will state that collectors have differing objectives, and that's why you see a delta in behavior. Also Reselling large lots is nothing like cherry picking off your personal want list.

"Most people" was referring to collectors. And knowing large lots is not simply knowing the $1000 stamp, or the really scarce variety, although it helps. It IS about knowing where on a particular stamp those varieties exist, however. It's also about knowing how to value the frequently found stamps, and noticing the stamps that don't usually show up often in even decent collections. Some stamps that catalog 3 or 4 figures show up quite regularly, while some which catalog less show up far less often.

You are joining revcollector in moving the argument to a softer target.

The question was whether/not TPG services (especially the oft-dissed PSE) can evaluate the condition (not the market price) of a stamp as well as a dealer ... or better.




My point is that the less-well-armed collector reached-out to the TPG services to level the playing field in arguments with dealers; that the collector needs a more level playing field is what is driving TPG.

Cheers,

/s/ ikeyPikey (who thinks that collectors review auction lots with less "speed and focus" because they are there to enjoy themselves)

Most collectors review auction lots with less "speed and focus" because most are not as good at doing so, except perhaps in their specialty. The people at the PF originally WERE dealers. It's only the last 15-20 years that this is not the case for the permanent employees. They have always existed to give opinions on genuineness, and in the post dealers era condition as well. PSE was started to make money by pushing the same idea of grading that the coin hobby has had for a lot longer. "Leveling the playing field" had NOTHING to do with it.

The "slabbing" of these graded gems also was born out of coin collectors, how did that one work out for everyone? How many people are stuck with these stamp tombs after paying good money for the graded 95 stamp issued in 1956.

Q/ Do you really want to argue that, on the one hand, dealers have vastly greater knowledge than collectors and, on the other hand, that collectors do not feel at a disadvantage when bargaining with dealers?

Q/ Do you really want to argue that collectors do not see TPG as a way to level that playing field?

Q/ Do you really want to argue, contrary to Don's admonition about mind-reading, that the only reason collectors buy into grading is ego & greed?

Some of our forum brothers have posted, in this forum, that they have bought certs to protect their heirs from those magnificently knowledgeable dealers.

Q/ Do you really want to doubt their motives?

Cheers,

/s/ ikeyPikey

You are trying to make blanket statements about this. I have stated about the really good knowledgeable dealers, not EVERY dealer.
The collector who has done his homework in his specialty should not feel at a disadvantage to a dealer, unless that dealer specializes in the same area, and then the collector should know enough at that point to know whether to trust that dealer or not.
Any collector who thinks grading is leveling the playing field deserves what he will get. Because the wise and patient collector can build a great collection without a single graded stamp. Every great collection before 1980 had NO graded stamps. Many VF-S stamps to be sure, but no one seemed to need a grade to seriously want them at the time. And there was more competition then, too.
Mind reading is not involved or needed in thinking that grading is about greed and ego, all that has been needed is 30 years of observation of the phenomenon. Coupled with listening to many professionals on the subject.
This is not about "getting certs". This is about grading. Anyone can get a cert on anything they wish without requiring a grade.

Boom...This is the problem with dealers, in a nutshell. Exploitation is tested and then the relationship is built around discovery. This game of chicken usually ends poorly for naive collectors when they try to sell their life accumulations.

A collector should never feel at a disadvantage to a dealer. They should feel empowered to learn more and make strides in the hobby. Their short sight (most collectible dealers fall into this category) self serving behavior has had a long term negative impact.

Some dealers are exploitative, and some are not. There are certainly dealers out there who are very willing to help collectors learn. There are also dealers willing to learn from collectors, often the same individuals. Such relationships can last decades, with both sides gaining a great deal.