315 Used Pair For Sale With Clean Older PF Cert - Missing PF Cert Declining Cancel Opinion

Hipstamp Listing:

https://www.hipstamp.com/listing/31...212/11028160

PF Cert Information:

http://pfsearch.org/pfsearch/pf_grd...lledfrom=lkp

Hi Rod - these stamps with missing certs seem to involve the same seller. Are you looking only at his listings?

No, not looking only at his listings. I am starting with the pricier US classics and he has the lions share it seems. I am going to continue doing the same research regardless of seller because that is only fair.

This is Bill Langs material. No surprises here.

I am drawing a blank right now, but the 'anonymous' (can't remember the correct term for a cancel without any identifying feature, or a simple lone geometric shape) postmark on a stamp with a huge jump in value from unused to used is a HUGE red flag. I would never, ever, EVER, consider spending any money on such an example. The PF opinion, "...BUT DECLINE OPINION WITH RESPECT TO WHETHER THE CANCEL IS CONTEMPORARY", almost does this example a disservice. Although, I am sure, the 'cancel' cannot be positively identified, it is clearly a fake done to deceive a collector. The PF should call it what it is - a fake cancel. I saw this listing a while back and just had to roll my eyes. Bill is looking for an inexperienced collector with more dollars than sense. Listing this stamp is not an honest mistake. Based on the sale price, this is clearly being sold as genuine and fault-free. I am shocked at the 'original' PF cert from 1983 showing this as part of a block and opining that it is genuine. Can anyone explain how something that is so obviously a fake could be called genuine (at any time) by the PF?

I have seen lately many large lots of stamps made up of damaged/faked/altered stamps (and the lot being sold as such) but which come with clear certs (this fact also being part of the description). They always seem to sell for a bit more than one would expect such stamps to sell for. I suspect they are being bought by unscrupulous dealers that fully intend to throw out the 'bad' cert, and sell based on the 'good' cert.

FWIW, I don't buy from Bill based on what I have seen him posting for sale and his descriptions. This is a perfect example.

It's fine for you to simply say "it's fake" in a post. You can claim anything you like. When the PF examines a stamp it uses evidence to prove it's findings, even though it is called "an opinion". Direct comparisons, historical research, and decades of examining similar items. I happen to know they despise saying "no opinion", but will not give one where that opinion cannot be backed up either way.

In my opinion(ha!), the PF made a mistake. They should have opined that it is not a post office cancel of the period. It absolutely not a postal marking of the era. I do not need to examine the stamp in the flesh to state that.

Some dealers in years past cancelled unsaleable no gum coils and imperfs that were worth more used as being "cancelled" rather than have been "used." It was a euphemism for a item that the dealer had canceled with a handstamp in his desk drawer.

On the one hand, I completely agree with you, revcollector, and understand the rationale behind the PF's opinion. On the other hand, in my 50 years of collecting, I have only seen a plain circular handstamp cancel (in this era) on stamps that are worth a lot, and especially on stamps that are worth more used than unused. The law of averages says that we could expect to see such a cancel spread evenly over all issues of the era.

That is not to rule out that some post office in, say, Beaver Butt, North Dakota, didn't lose or damage their hand canceller and used the one on the 315 for a week or so while a replacement was shipped. I'll argue that this is analogous to the current practice of dragging a pen across a bunch of stamps that have not been cancelled. Those are worth much less than properly cancelled stamps. Logically, they are cancelled like any other stamp, but stamp collectors 'arbitrarily' put a lower value on them. I don't see this cancel as any different - a non-sanctioned, unofficial, get-it-cancelled-with-anything-you-can cancel. Of course THAT assumes it was used in the postal service. I would bet it wasn't though.

I can decline an opinion on any stamp or cancel from any country......just saying#

There is no argument that it does not look right. But if a group is putting their name and reputation on a cert then more is needed. I suspect that they did not like it either, but a cert requires an opinion with some basis.

I absolutely am picking up what you are putting down, revcollector.

Now, write a check for $8K for this stamp, send it in to the PF for a new cert, and (presumably) they send it back with a "no opinion". To me, no opinion means that I cannot get a clear cert. ("No opinion" is far from clear, as far as I am concerned) Looking at it alternately, if I were looking for such a stamp, and it had a "No opinion" cert with it, I would walk away. No ifs, ands, or buts. So, now that you've gotten a nice new 'no opinion' cert, and you decide that isn't good enough, try to return it. Most, if not all, dealers and auction firms do not recognize a 'no opinion' as grounds for a return. Especially if they sold it knowing (due to their decades of experience, and knowing that such a cancel is most likely fake) that, at best, it would come back with a 'no opinion'. To such a dealer, at the point of sale, a future 'no opinion' cert is as good as a future clear cert. I GUARANTEE the buyer doesn't feel the same way.

So... what are the ethics in such a matter? What are the ethical considerations of a dealer that does this time after time? Especially when negative certs get lost, but clear certs do not?? Where does the ASDA or APS stand on this?

I have seen much more convincing cancels than this one declared an outright fake. I am not sure how old the "No Opinion" cert is but I have a hard time believing that if that pair was submitted today that the PF would continue to sit on the fence.

The additional problem is that it has 2 prior certs that say it is genuine (both much older).

It has one older cert for when it was part of a block of four. The other pair cut from the block was submitted at the same time and the cancellation received the same non-opinion opinion.

The more I read, the more I am leery of "BBS"

You should be.