How Many Expertizing Certificates Do You Have?

Interesting post, fun city. Thanks for starting it.

I don't have an exact count, but I know my number of certs is in excess of 100. No PF and just a few APS. If I was to buy a US item with a PSE or PSAG cert, I'd keep it. But I'll go either APS or PF if I need a new cert on a US item.

The large majority of my certs come from the ISPP (International Society for Portuguese Philately). I have additional certs from J. Miranda da Mota and Paulo Dias, both well known philatelists and expertizers in Portugal.

I have several certs from MEPSI for Mexico items. I have additional certs from the late Dr. Stanley Kronenberg and Stefan Petruik for Polish items, and a stray from Sergio Sismondo for a used Rhodesia double-head.

Just curious Rodg: what technology has been developed over the past 35 years that improves the diagnostic capability of calling regumming which involves looking at gum staining of the perfs and perf holes. To my simplistic way of thinking you need a pair of eyes and magnification—both available 35 years ago. I have a Scott #60 certified as genuine regummed in 1951 by the PF—so obviously this diagnosis is not a recent development.

My comment was more directed to the repaired perf tips but I cannot say whether or not the VSC6000 has improved the detection of regumming. One assumption I could make was that because the perf tips were added to and yet had the same gum that it could call into question the originality of the overall gum. I also assume that they would detect redistribution of gum to the perf tips if that had taken place.

This is a good time to interject the topic of transparency in expertizing. Instead of guessing would it not be great to have a report with your certificate that told you what equipment was used and precisely what was found and how. Some explaining would be fabulous.

When I have bloodwork done I get results, not just a sentence that tells me that I indeed have blood and it is genuine.

When you dispersed your US collection through Rupp, did he buy you collection outright, act as agent for auction or sell off retail with you as the consignor?

Papa - Retail as consignor

I have about 500 certs. I certify (or buy stamps that already have certs) almost everything with a catalog value over $300, all flat-plate coils, a lot of color or other varieties, and a handful of graded certs on relatively lower-value stamps that came with the cert when I bought the stamp. I have gotten new certificates to replace most pre-2000 certs, Miller or Weiss Certs. I normally use the PF and PSE, but sometimes PSAG. Never APS. I like PSE and PF equally.

The PF and PSE have extensive reference collections, top-notch experts (often the same ones) and very importantly, they both have VSC-6000 machines that can detect faults and frauds that are difficult or impossible to see otherwise. Lots of folks here don't like PSE because they don't like grading or encapsulation. I think they are equal to the PF when it comes to identifying stamps and ensuring they are sound. Both offer great service and have both provided answers to my questions on their opinions. Both have reconsidered items and updated their opinions on identification on unusual items.

For certain stamps, I want a very recent cert (like 2015+). These stamps include flat plate coils, 27, 28A, 30, 31, 34, and others.

Certs from the 80s or earlier are worthless. The tech and consistency was not there, let alone the fact that the stamp may have changed. An expensive stamp offered for sale with a very old cert is almost certainly going to be a problem - and probably a scam where the dealer knows it is a bad stamp.

I want to make sure that my collection has a few "album weeds" as possible. And having certified stamps helps me be more confident when identifying new stamps and making sure they are not reperfs, regums, or otherwise fraudulently damaged.

And when it is time to sell, I'll already have the certs, plus reassurances that my collection is what I think it is.

Philazilla: you are indeed the dream cash cow for the expertizing industry. With all due respect to your blanket statements, why don't you talk to Nick Kirke who displayed many award winning collections of used US on the PSE website. Nick, for those who do not know of him, contributed in the recent past, and for all I know, still does on the Frajola stamp board and described in great deal his frustration in seeking concordance between the PF and PSE on his award winning stamps that were submitted to each organization within months of each other. He also as I recall discussed how much he spent in fees for his certificates.

Since both organizations have the VSC 6000, that you place unlimited confidence in, there really should be very little disagreement if any on the condition and identity of an item. As I recall, that is not what Nick found.

@funcitypapa, you make a lot of assumptions, don't you? You seem to confuse expertizing certificates with grading. You don't know what I collect. I don't collect the same way Nick Kirke collects or collected. Nick's issues were with grading and difficult calls on shades. Not on opinions on soundness.

I'm sure those without certificates on expensive stamps have many more fakes than I do. Nick Kirke went after top grade stamps and PSE awards. Thats cool for him, but not what I do. Please share how Nick or anyone else discovered that their certificates were misidentifying stamps or showing significant disagreements on condition. I'm not talking about grading or about tiny flaws mentioned generally on one cert and specifically on another. No doubt you can find a couple of mistakes one of the agencies has made, but you are foolish to think you are in a better position to judge a stamp and even more foolish if you think others will accept your opinion over a certificate when you want to sell something.

If you have higher-value stamps without certs, with a few exceptions, you are going to have a very expensive reference collection of fakes and frauds.

On one end of the collecting scale we have folks who collect damaged space filler stamps and on the other end of the scale we have folks who collect certifications. I think the majority of people are in between but of course no matter what or how people collect they should be encouraged and supported by us all.

I have very few certs, somewhere around 10 and all for US stamps; these typically were purchased with existing stamps. I do not cert WW stamps because they are my 'fun' collection. I had the opportunity to get as many US certs as I wanted at no cost from BillW back when he was alive but my lack of interest in certs did not make it worth asking for this favor.

A number of my other collections and interests are either outside the typically certification arena and/or I feel comfortable enough to not pursue certs.
Don

Philzillia: thank you for your comments. I don't believe I made a slap about your collection. I know nothing about your collection whereas you do know something about mine since I indicated that the bulk of my purchases were from Rupp. Everyone knows the level of quality they sell as well as their practice of offering certified stamps at the point of sale. So obviously I am a believer in certificates and the expertizing system. I never tried to compare my knowledge with that of the experts; that would be ludicrous.

My issue is your blanket statement that certificates from the 80's or earlier are worthless. Since I made many of my purchases from Rupp and others in the 80's and 90's, and if they came with a reasonably recent certificate and I have been the sole owner for the last 30 years, why would I send these stamps away to be handled by the postal service and subsequently an expertizing organization unless I was consigning to Siegel for example, and Scott Trepel advised it?

As it turns out, I am privy to a disagreement between two expertizing organizations about not only the grade but in fact the identity of the stamp; the difference between the lower grade/less rare variant combo and the rarer variant/higher grade combo spanning a difference of about $7000 on SMQ. The dilemma arising that these two characteristics are mixed on the two opinions. Since I don't own this stamp, I don't feel it ethical to say anymore about this specific instance other than to say that sometimes attempts to define "what I have" yields information that you intended to be constructive but turns out, through no one's fault to be something else.

It sounds like you have a great collection. Why not post some of your certs such as the 27,31, and 34.

Don: I'm right on with your comment of your WW collection being your fun collection. Same for me. I think here in the US we are at the extreme end of the bell shaped curve with regards to certs, recertification, and grading. Maybe, just maybe, our society is too focused on monetary value and not the hobby itself

@funcotypapa Sounds like you have a nice collection too. I suppose if you, yourself, sent for a cert in the 80s
or before, they hold some value, but I think you might want to recertify some of the tough ones. You could even talk to the PF or PSE and ask about which stamps often have faults that used to not get caught. I wish they would be more public about advances in detecting faults and which stamps they are seeing more difficult-to-detect faults now.

And when you want to sell, you'll come out ahead if you have more recent certs.

I'll see about posting a couple later. I have posted stamps on the forum before.

I am a relatively newer collector (5-6 years) and would not trust a cert from more than 15-20 years ago.

Christopher resubmitted many of my consigned stamps that had older certs in order to have updated certs. It just makes sense. In addition several of the consigned stamps that were purchased were first resubmitted at the buyers request. Denying the value of having up-to-date certs is denying reality.

I also do not understand the "some people collect certs" stuff. It seems as if the inference is that folks with lots of certs are somehow doing something wrong? I just do not understand the pushback on having recent certs.

Sending a message that recent certs are not really that important sends the wrong message to collectors that are dipping their toes in the deeper end of the stamp pool and gives them a false sense of security when purchasing stamps with 30 year old certs. There are enough collectors already that are in for a shock when they or their heirs go to sell their "valuable" collection acquired on the cheap through ebay with old or no certs.

PS: Look at any pricier stamp sold at auction or by a reputable dealer and it will have an updated cert. Stamps with older certs or no certs do show up and do not do as well.

There is a reason why Lang's listings were loaded with 80's and 90's certs. The newer ones were often "lost". Why? The answer has been discussed here many times.

Read the context of my statement; it is talking about a range of collecting from 'space fillers' to 'certifiable' stamps. The paragraph clearly states that I think we should support people no matter how they collect.
Don

Rodg:

Thank you for the updated information. As one who has also purchased from Rupp Brothers over the years and would certainly consider consigning to them an option for myself, I have 3 questions:

1. Why did you decide to sell? I had assumed by your posts that you were still actively collecting.
2. Why did you decide to consign to Rupp as opposed to Seigel or other auction venue?
3. You mention that Rupp resubmitted many of your items or the buyer requested it. What was the vintage of your certified items and what was the outcome from the resubmission? How many opinions had changed and how much new was actually picked up? What was the total cost of resubmission?

I don't think Lang's is a good comparator to what you did, I did or Philazilla is doing? Of course, nobody can really understand what Lang's thoughts and strategy was, I was impressed with how many of Lang's items were either non certified when they should have been ( just consider the number of 70c's on ebay alone) but how often the certs themselves pointed out faults even when the headline did not. My thinking is rather than losing certs which obviously is an alternative explanation, he was not adverse to buying faulty stamps if the price was right.