Stamp Community Family of Web Sites
Thousands of stamps, consistently graded, competitively priced and hundreds of in-depth blog posts to read








Stamp Community Forum
 
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

Quantities Issued/Existing For Premiere Gravure 1861 Stamps?

 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 9 / Views: 1,323Next Topic  
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
United States
1825 Posts
Posted 04/26/2021   4:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add rlsny to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
With the upcoming Peterson auction I've been researching this topic. Other than the 3c and the 10c, it would appear there was just a single sheet of 200 made for each of the "August" issues. These were stamps requested by the government prior to the final printing of the 1861 issues.

On the Swedish Tiger site this number 200 is also listed except for #60 (aka 70TC6) for which it states there were 479 produced.

That seems like an odd number and I don't see that anywhere else.

Also I note that Siegel has a census for many of these stamps, but not the #60. The PF shows 39 certs for #60/70TC6.

So my questions come down to: how many #60s were made? is there a census regarding how many exist?
Send note to Staff

Bedrock Of The Community
12575 Posts
Posted 04/26/2021   5:41 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
From Siegel:


Quote:
In 1861, the contract for printing postage stamps was awarded to National Bank Note Company after Toppan Carpenter's contract expired on June 10. The designs were changed and the earlier stamps were demonetized, primarily as a means of depriving the seceding states of a form of currency.

National Bank Note Company apparently submitted gummed and perforated samples of their designs. Of the original submitted designs, the 24c and 30c were not altered in any way before approval and use. The original samples for these two denominations were printed in a different shade, and are currently listed in the Trial Color Proof section of Scott Catalogue. A quantity of the 10c First Design was printed and issued from this original plate, although they were likely printed after the normal stamp (Scott 68) was issued. The likely reason is that the original plate was brought into use to keep up with demand for the 10c stamps. Therefore, only the 10c, 24c and 30c plates as originally made were used to print issued stamps. The other denominations -- 1c, 3c, 5c, 12c and 90c -- Scott Nos. 55, 56, 57, 59 and 62 -- were never issued in their original designs. These are called "Premiere Gravures" or "First Designs" by students of the issue.

It is likely that a small supply of the "Premiere Gravures" and First Colors reached philatelic hands at an early stage. Several First Design denominations are known cancelled -- a 12c is known with manuscript "New" written across the design -- but the placement and style of cancel means that they cannot conclusively be shown to have gone through the mails, and are likely experimental or control cancels.

Two examples of the 24c with target cancels are known. The other surfaced as a new find and was offered in our 2016 Rarities sale, with a similar cancel but without the note regarding the cancel.


Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
United States
1825 Posts
Posted 04/26/2021   6:53 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rlsny to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I've seen that. There is some more detailed stuff on some old chronicles and other publications. The more detailed stories talk about the government contract stipulating the delivery of samples of each denomination prior to the final go-ahead with the 1861 printing. That seems to be why the "August issues" were made. It makes sense that there was one sheet of 200 each, but I'd love to find some confirmation and some more authoritative work on #60.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Bedrock Of The Community
12575 Posts
Posted 04/26/2021   8:03 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I think that the Swedish Tiger is using numbers pulled from the Atlanta proofs and the 1875 Special Printings. Neither is correct for the 60/70TC6.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Bedrock Of The Community
United States
10639 Posts
Posted 04/26/2021   8:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The Luff Book does not give quantities for the August Issue.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
New Member
United States
4 Posts
Posted 04/28/2021   2:57 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Blackjack to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
As I have shown my 24c
deep violet premiere #60
design in post last year,
I would like to confirm that
24c design was postally
used as noted by Siegel.
So there must have been
a few hundred releases to
P O in 1861.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
United States
1825 Posts
Posted 04/28/2021   5:04 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rlsny to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This is incorrect. I believe there are only 2 certified used copies of #60. The consensus is that they were not ever made available for postal use. So those two stamps are a very rare exception. Yours could theoretically be number 3, but that's all.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
United States
1825 Posts
Posted 05/02/2021   1:06 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rlsny to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I've still been trying to look into this topic. It appears some important details have been lost to history. Here's the most authoritative statement I found on the creation of the first issue plates. From a document on the Siegel website:

"Company records show that the eight plates for the
1861 stamps were completed between June 15 and 19,
and that these plates — numbered 1 through 8 and containing 200 subjects each — were made from the first
dies engraved for each value."

It is well known that 5 of the 8 stamp designs were modified before the final printing later in 1861. The 24c and 30c plates were used as originally produced with a change in color only.

This much many of you already know. But how many of the stamps were produced from those first plates and with those first colors I still haven't found. The information on Swedish Tiger is suspect, but the idea that just one sheet of 200 subjects was produced is not crazy given how scarce the stamps are today with typically fewer than 50 known examples of each.

Though the controversy over where in the catalog these stamps belong seems to be settled, details of why the 5 plate designs were changed don't appear to be known. (Though theories abound.) The process that occurred between the government and the National Banknote company to review the "premiere gravure" printings is not documented.

So, I'll keep trolling the internet to see if anything else is hiding out there, but it looks like I'll have to live with the ambiguity.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
United Kingdom
71 Posts
Posted 05/20/2021   01:28 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add theswedish to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I was interested in this post. As the publisher of the Swedishtiger website I can confirm that the number quoted was inaccurate. My sincere apologies for this inaccuracy. As I write the quantity issued is being changed on the website to read 'not known'. The page for #60 is a 2003 created page. Bit by bit I am updating the pages. The 2021 pages are in a much updated format and, hopefully, more accurate. Having said that, I beg any one that spots an error on the website to let me know. The website is a collaboration of information from people like you, a correct change is a wonderful assed to have.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
United States
1825 Posts
Posted 06/04/2021   3:40 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rlsny to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Great to have you here theswedish. The site has been useful to many of us over the years.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
  Previous TopicReplies: 9 / Views: 1,323Next Topic  
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.

Go to Top of Page

Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Stamp Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Stamp Community Family - All rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Stamp Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Privacy Policy / Terms of Use    Advertise Here
Stamp Community Forum © 2007 - 2026 Stamp Community Forums
It took 0.17 seconds to lick this stamp. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05