US 36B, Possible Plate Flaws And Double Transfer.

Good day all, I have a 1860 Christmas eve cover that went to Scotland from Philadelphia, this cover had a pair of 36Bs but was lifted at some point before ownership, and when replaced they separated, now making it two singles on cover. bummer yes. but this all happened before I got it. the cover is accompanied by a PSE Cert 2008 as genuine in all respects, with all the basic information. the cover is a beauty and the stamps are very well centered for this issue, which by the looks of them from other graded 36Bs would grade 95+ they are tied by a red Phila Br Pkt representing a 19 ct surcharge. its complete in every way. I did do some reading on the 12 ct, but I'm still a bit lost. my question is about the left stamp having no frame line on the left. and what looks like a double transfer on both at the bottom. is it possible that these stamps where not from plate 3 but plate 2? I did read that on plate 3 that there where some that had large parts of frames missing, but not a whole frame line. if anyone can provide a better understanding, that would be much appreciated. I have seen many 36Bs and never like this. if these could be plated that also would be much appreciated. side note I don't see anything about this kind of cover in Scott's specialized, is this unusual usage? thank you all.

You need to put the grading to rest.Both stamped have the top perforations through the top frame lines to the main design. Plus with the tears, and creases, grading would reflect that as well.




The fact they were ever a pair on this cover is far from certain. The lifting as was part of the certification cannot be blame for the separation or such would have been know before being lifted for certification. I do agree they were likely attached in the postal pane.

Good catch with the missing let frame line on the left stamp. Perhaps someone will be able to answer the plating question.

I will not say I see a clear double transfer. However what interests me more (especially regarding you plating question) is the missing design elements in the lower right corner of the right stamp.

Edited to add: Scott does not normally list (price) covers by destination.

I appreciate you pointing out the grading, absent the small tear and crease that happened while removing the pair, which I was told by the previous owner they lifted it and then sent it in got a certificate. the centering of this issue is scarce and not common, as I was told and I have seen on others would be considered a jumbo. at least from what I have seen on pse certs for the 36B from past seigal Auctions, but yes it would most likely grade at a 80 in its current condition as this issue is given some leniency.. this wasn't my focus, and I should have explained better. more curious on if from plate 2 VS plate 3, and I haven't seen any 36Bs with a full frame line gone. like the left stamp left side. as for the right stamp bottom right I don't know how I missed that. so thank you for pointing it out to me. Hopefully someone can fill in some of the blanks to this puzzle. I would ask what are your thoughts on its current condition as to what you think it would realized value in today's market.. I think it still has lots of eye appeal, along with unusual travel with the 36Bs and the content is interesting from who sent it to who was spoken about and the receiver. thank you very much.

According to Neinken's book:



The reconstruction of plate 3 was never completed.
These two stamps are not from plate one (as I just virtually reconstructed plate 1 and you will find no match for these two stamps). Therefore, they come from plate 3 and are 36Bs. And I did not need to pull them off cover to determine this. My guess is the stamps were creased and separated when they were removed from cover. I hope someone scanned this cover before sending it for certification to hold them responsible if they did this damage. Plate 3 was made somewhere between May 1856 and March 1857. The earliest usage date on record is June 1, 1860.

Here is what Neinken says about plate 3:



So, the guide dots are a bit different from plate 1. On plate 1, the guide dots are not on the right column or the bottom row of both panes. On plate 1, the top row had guide dots around the top right corner, whereas, on plate 3, the top row guide dots are on the bottom and the bottom rows of plate 3 have lower right guide dots. Both plates used a single transfer row. Plate one was rocked in from the top down and plate 3 was rocked in from the bottom to the top. The right column of the left pane of plate 3 supposedly has guide dots.

Looking at these stamps, the left stamp looks like it has a guide dot at the bottom right corner and the left stamp has no guide dot. So, accordingly, the right stamp having no guide dot places the pair on columns 9 and 10 of the right pane of plate 3. This narrows down the plating to 10 positions. There is rumor of a block of 24 (positions 3-10---23-30R3) known and a block of 42 (positions 54-60---94-100R3) that may be found in Ashbrook's records (which I will look for).

In the meantime, I would like to use your images for future study, if I may.

Well, I have done some research and have plated your pair as 97-98R3.

I found it on a block of 25 from Siegel sale #1000 Lot #1019.
On the block of 25, in the upper right hand corner, you can make out half of the plate number 3.
Here is the block and a blowup of the pair 97-98R3,

I want to start by saying wowzers and thank you so very much. that's amazing you found the plate 3 pane of 25 from the lower right and was able to accurately identify both stamp, and conclude that is was a pair and that any damage done, had to have happened when lifted. I'm grateful that they where left on cover to see the history of this item. I do have a question, if 97R3 is the only position from the right pane with no left frame line? also correct me if I'm wrong but the centering of the 36B is scare and given lot of leniency when considered? just like a recent seigal listing sale 9040 lot 10015 of a US 94 graded 98 with a repaired tear, that sold above SMQ value. do these two positions have any significance as to any plate flaws or double transfers? and what kind of value would this cover bring realized as in its totality?

The right stamp is cut into the top line and therefore would not get a good grade. The fold and any tear would further lower the grade. So grading is out of the question. The fold would severely lower the value. They would have done better if they had cut the corner and soaked the stamps off without damage. The double transfer is nice but it is still a damaged stamp. Siegal listing sale 9040 lot 10015 does not exist, I could not see either stamp grading better than 60 or 70. They are cut into the design. I do not think the cover would sell for over $150, IMHO, But it is a nice pair and had me doing some hard research to find it, After I did not find it in the right pane in last column, I was beginning to wonder myself. I did find ome beauties though. In addition to the corner block of 25, I also found a complete half sheet of the top of the right pane. I will show it in my thread for this issue.

I appreciate all of the information you have shared and also plating them, as for the seigal Auction, I will share the listing. grading was never my thing with these, but was pointed out because of how scarce they are centered and after seeing many graded high absent the small tear on the right stamp and crease. I would agree that they would grade about a 70 which to SMQ would be $135 each off cover. I have been told SMQ is a realized standard for graded stamps. as to my question before is 97R3 the only stamp on the right pane to not have a left frame line, and would this VAR or the double transfer on both, or 98R3 missing the bottom right part of the design have any extra value. also with your value assessment would the stamps on cover be of more value or less. as I was also told it has an unusual destination to Scotland with a pair of 36Bs. really trying to understand when buying covers like this & how a value is established. do we assess a cover by the stamps? Their individuality, their individual plate flaw or scarcity, then grading them and then obviously the cover in which they are on, what markings, destination, condition, content.
And then overall condition? sorry for all the questions. I have so many covers I have acquired over the years, and I wonder, have I been doing this all wrong? The whole time. I know as a stamp collector i'm not supposed to look at value, but I can't help but base value. Because how I acquire stamps is by paying a value to acquire them and have them within my collection.

The 94 that sold for over SMQ is an anomaly. It just takes 2 people who really want a unique stamp to send a price to the moon.

First of all, when PSE gave that stamp a grade of 98, they did not mention the repaired tear. Either it is so extremely minuscule that they didn't see it, or it happened sometime in the last 15 years after the stamp was certified.

The description says "expertly repaired margin tear at top center not mentioned on accompanying certificate is barely noticeable, Extremely Fine appearance, ex Kirke, with 2009 P.S.E. certificate as sound (Superb 98), only one grades higher (98J) and one other shares this grade."

Based on the grading, there is only one other stamp of its kind and only one better. The invisible margin tear does not detract from this very pretty stamp. Furthermore the exact same stamp with the same description previously sold at Siegel in 2022 for just $200 (Sale 1262 lot 713) versus the $1600 in 2025.

Unfortunately your stamps have a hard crease through the center that looks like the stamps have been torn in half and repaired.

The double transfer and plate variety does add interest, to some people, but it won't add 'points' to the grading to make up for the other faults.

It is a nice cover with nice features but not the kind of thing that someone looking for graded stamps would go after.

You need to value stamps and covers for what they are, not what they could be.

The postal history aspect of this cover (including the Scotland destination) are of more interest than the stamps, IMO. The stamps definitely add weight, but not much of a premium due to condition.

Scott lists most covers at a premium over the individual stamps. As for collectibility. that is a personal preference. I personally am not fond of covers because they are more difficult to store and see. I do not like to take old stamps off a cover, so I just don't buy covers. Problem solved.

As for another position missing the right line, position 99R3 is close. Only a small portion of the line shows, see image. I am not sure how many other positions are like this.

Phade122, I am sorry to say your repeated focusing on "value" even when such is being thwarted by the accurate statements of both the posters and the certificate itself, makes it seem you are trying to play "pump and dump."

What its value, consign it to a proper auction venue and stand back and watch the market determine the value on that day and time.

It is a nice cover to own, but not of a quality which commands eye popping prices. Not only are the stamps seconds, but the cover itself has condition issues.

It is what it is, enjoy it or sell it.

The crease damaged the stamps to the point where you would be better off NOT getting a grade since the lowest grade valued in the PSE database for a used 36B is a 50 and a 50 DROPS the catalog value.

The PF would not even grade them, since they are damaged.

thank you all, I have learned alot from this cover. I got it because I feel in love with it, even in its current condition. to me I see the beauty in this cover. my questions where genuine, not a pump and dump. I also agree with covers can be a pain VS singles or just off cover. but even with that said I also love the full story of postal history and the content, as well as the connection as a whole. again thank you to all. this forum is amazing and the knowledge here is better then anything else I have seen. I have others that I will most likely post, good thing this is the only one with any faults like this cover. wish I knew why they where ever lifted in the first place. don't mater anymore.. off to the next.