Collecting By Engraver

Wow, what a thread..116 pages...when I was at the show in Ottawa last week ..near closing time a dealer I buy from was trying to unload his stock so he would not have to take it home...i gave him 40 dollars for a black box full of glassines...i am sure he did not have a clue what was in it..turns out it was early 20th century stamps of Austria,Belgium, Czechoslovakia, Jugoslavia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. I will not have to purchase stamps for a while as I have hundreds of sets and better singles to add to my albums...i wish I was nearly as skilled as some of you folks at showing the stamps in high definition...but I do appreciate the engraving !

lithograving - Corrected version: I am very sorry. My mistake again. By the nonexistent "moletted" I meant "transferred from the die onto the printing cylinder by means of a transfer roll".

The original WIFAG I machine used in Czechoslovakia lacked etching equipment for the photogravure process. After some experimentation, the printers solved the problem by having the photogravure background engraved and transferred onto the photogravure printing cylinder by means of a transfer roll.

The engraved lines etc. printed by photogravure clearly show in images at full resolution of such stamps as the 1958 Brussels International Expo, S.G. 1030 (the top value), Motor Industry, e.g. S.G. 1069, 1070, Sports Events of 1959, S.G. 1073 - 1078 and even with WIFAG II, e.g. the 1967 Fauna, S.G. 1685 -1687 (the last three values).

What I meant to point out to was that ways of printing postage stamps often vary from printer to printer even if using the same brand of machine, and so do the results obtained.

Yesterday, I had some difficulty in posting my message either from my grandchildren's computer or that of the local public library due to some glitch somewhere, and today, I can see posted twice what I was unable to get through and correct.

Deleted

Florian

This seems odd since according to Glenn Morgan's very detailed article about Winkler Fallert & Co., AG presses it shows that in 1951 the Czechoslovakian state printer TUS started using a WIFAG I which was capable of printing 1 colour recess intaglio and 1 colour photogravure.

http://www.stampprinters.info/WIFAG.pdf

Florian,

the WIFAG could print in photogravure! The type of cylinders for photogravure is principally different from those for recess! A cylinder for recess would need a moletting from steel-engraved transfer rollers. I do not see how this could be done on a photogravure cylinder with just a shallow layer on top of a copper cylinder and an extra layer of chrome to protect....

Unscreened photogravure as in use since the late 1920-ies for Switzerland, Vatican City and South Africa would be less problematic. Etching should not have been the problem as there had already been photogravure printed stamps in Praha before?!

groetjes, Rein

lithograving - The WIFAG 1 was first used in Czechoslovakia for printing the Ladislav Zápotocký set of two issued on Jan. 12, 1952, S.G. 669-670, harrow perforation 11 1/4 : 11 1/2, which is characteristic of WIFAG-printed stamps while line perforation 12 1/2 was characteristic of Stickney-printed stamps of the period.

Both the Stickney and the WIFAG printing machines continued to be used for printing stamps alongside one another until 1959. For example, the Miners' Day set of 4 issued on 09/14/1952 (S.G. 724-728) had even two values (1 Kès and 3 Kès) printed on the Stickney and two (1.50 Kès and 2 Kès) on the WIFAG 1. The different printings can easily be told apart, at first sight, by their different perforations.

The very last stamps to have been printed on the Stickney were the 1958-1959 President Novotný definitives, S.G. 1039- 1040, both values (30 h and 60 h) Sickney-printed in Bratislava and WIFAG 1-printed in Prague. The 60 h values even differ in the engraving of the figure "6" in "60 h", its shape on the Stickney printings being different from that on the WIFAG 1 printings.

The very first combination line-engraving/photogravure WIFAG 1-printed stamps appeared on 12/29/1953 as the Transport set, S.G. 806-807, the 60 h value depicting a steam-engine and the 1 Kès value featuring a Dakota DC-3 mail aircraft while being loaded with mail. Note the whale symbol in place of the designer's name, Albert Jonáš (= the biblical Jonah swallowed by a big fish), 1893-1974.

Florian stated previously :




As usual your information is 100% correct. You are certainly
an invaluable source of information.
The scan below from my old Michel Katalog confirms what you said.
It states that Goldschmied engraved the plate for the second colour.
But also note that Michel claims it was a combination printing
of recess (StTdr.) and photogravure. (RaTdr.)




It states that the engravings for the second colour of plates was by J. Goldschmied.
Printing : combination steel engraving and photogravure.



I only have two values of the 1958 Czechoslovakian Automotive Industry
set which you mentioned


Scott 891 Michel 1110

Engraver : Bedrich Housa





Scott 892 Michel 1112

Bohdan Roule 1921 - 1960

The Czechoslovakian 1967 Fauna of Tatra National Park set
mentioned previously by Florian were printed on a WIFAG II press
which was capable of 1 colour steel engraving (intaglio) and
up to three colours photogravure ----> UNITS IPPP

As stated on Glenn Morgans's website http://www.stampprinters.info/WIFAG.pdf
it was in use between 1966 until 2005.


Scott 1497

On the lower right of the 30h are the initials B.H.-J.G for
Bedrich Housa and Jaroslav Goldschmied (1890 - 1977).
This again confirms that Goldschmied engraved the photogravure
backgrounds for some stamps in this period as stated by Florian.






I believe even though his initials only appear on the lowest
(first)value Jaroslav Goldschmied worked on the entire set.



Scott 1498

Engraver : Bedrich Housa






Scott 1499

Engraver : Jindra Schmidt






Scott 1500

Engraver : Bedrich Housa





Scott 1501

Engraver : Jindra Schmidt






Scott 1502

Engraver : Jindra Schmidt

lithograving - Thank you again.

Back to your post of 01/31/2013 on p.104 of this thread concerning hidden names in the designs of the Tatra National Park multicolour engraved stamps, Scott 1643-1645:

The latest issue of the FILATELIE magazine (No. 5) brings an article on microtexts and stamp creators' jokes on Czechoslovak stamps by a well-informed philatelist Vladimír Babák. To my suprise, even the third stamp carries a hidden name which I never discovered with my watchmaker's lens. The name is hidden on the slope of Mount Kriváò, and is that of Doctor Julius KUGY, admirer of the beauties of mountains, especially the Julian Alps.

The name GELLNER does represent the poet and graphic artist František Gellner (1881 - 1914 missing in action), author of "Journey to the Mountains and Other Stories" published in 1914.

florian, it took awhile but I finally located the hidden name KUGY

Czechoslovakia Scott 1645

Designer : Jaroslav Lukavský

Engraver : Ladislav Jirka





Just another example of how much enjoyment one can get from our hobby.
Stamps are fun, even cheap ones like these.

lithograving - I could not agree more. Thank you for the pleasure one can get studying your scans.

Quote from your post of 05/18/2013 5:25 pm on the Czechoslovakian 1967 Fauna of Tatra National Park set: I believe even though his initials only appear on the lowest value Jaroslav Goldschmied worked on the entire set.

Strangely enough, the then POFIS catalogues only mention Bedøich Housa and Jindra Schmidt as the engravers but never Jaroslav Goldschmied, not even for the 30 h value expressly co-signed by him.

Galeoptix - The fact remains that the retired Stamp Printing Works printer Miroslav Vondøich prefers to call this process "moletted photogravure" on p. 19 of the FILATELIE monthly No.4/2004.

He points out that the WIFAG 1 lacked etching equipment for the photogravure process, so after several abortive attempts to produce it, the printers solved the problem by having the background in photogravure engraved. However, "moletting" onto photogravure copper cylinders presented a number of problems. That was why the technique was abandonned and "moletting" was carried out onto photogravure steel cylinders.

Being far from an expert, I have nothing to add and certainly cannot go into details.

Thank you very much for your most obliging and prompt response to the appeal for an image of the 1966 "Pour le MUSÉE POSTAL" souvenir sheet and a blow-up of its "Impression taille-douce report" section at full resolution. Most appreciated.

I was also most grateful for your further info on the S.T.I.F. printing machines used by the Belgian Post in the past, finally dispelling my uncertainty and correcting my earlier tentative conjectures about these machines.

I think some of us would appreciate if you could possibly enlarge on the offset-recess, particularly on how what appears as solid-colour areas on the "Impression taille-douce report" of the 1966 "Pour le MUSÉE POSTAL" souvenir sheet was achieved, whether any etching process was involved, etc.

Of course, I understand such information might be unavailable.

Best wishes,

Florian

Thanks Florian!

I did wonder how they managed with copper cylinders.... BTW, the photogravure cylinders have a much smaller circumference than the recess ones. Do you their circumference and how many counter sheets were on the photogravure cylinder and how many on the recess cylinders???

groetjes, Rein

Galeoptix - Rein, Mr. Miroslav Vondøich says in FILATELIE No.5/2004 that the recess cylinder is a tube 185.6 mm in diameter, 350 mm long and about 18.5 mm thick. It can hold two counter sheets of 50 stamps size S.G. 1682-1687 (1967 Fauna of Tatra National Park set posted above).

I am afraid no dimensions are mentioned for the photogravure cylinder.

S pozdravem, Florian