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Question : Penny Red

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Bedrock Of The Community
Australia
38679 Posts
Posted 09/12/2010   10:02 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Puzzler, In Engineering parlance, a Mandrel is a steel
rolling pin with a very minute reducing diameter
down the shaft.
They are used on a Lathe or a milling machine to cut teeth
into a gear slug. It's the only way to hold a piece of material frimly that has a hole in it.

This "rolling pin" shape, or "Mandrel shape" occurred on
stamp design to join the upper and lower frame elements
to give an overall frame effect especially to portrait designs.
I am not surprised you have not heard of it, because US stamps
very rarely have employed this shape.
If you flip throught the US catalogue, it is immediately
apparent the US banknote just loved and stuck with
ovate frames around their portraits. It recurs constantly
up to 1947 and beyond.
I have seen the fasces on 1 US example make a suitable
mandrel support.

Mandrel support with Jefferson:



For a real and constant mandrel example one has to look at
the Dr. Sun Yat Sen series of China.




The Penny Black / red is not a true mandrel, but still a
form of support and suits the description.

The background and mandrels of the Penny red were engraved
by a machine called a "Rose Engine" and I think it is
believed the Perkins process engraved the filigree direct
onto the transfer roller (how they did this is a real mystery)

This "rose engine" work, secured Perkins the Penny Black
contract due to the fact it was considered to be proof
against forgery.

Modern rose engine work is machined onto flat plate
and bent around the transfer roller.

This is how I understand it, hope this helps.






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Bedrock Of The Community
Australia
38679 Posts
Posted 09/12/2010   10:10 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
A Rose Engine,
In a past life I was a Marine Engineer,
and this picture makes sense, but don't ask me
to explain it

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Pillar Of The Community
Canada
1259 Posts
Posted 09/12/2010   10:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add djd to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Moonbird

Quote:
I have a few penny red covers for sale if anyone interested.

I would be interested, Please read email sent.
David -DJD
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
7072 Posts
Posted 09/12/2010   11:42 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Cjd to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Penny red covers?

If enough of the postmarks are on the stamps to support soaking, then I'm interested, too.
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Rest in Peace
Canada
6750 Posts
Posted 09/13/2010   12:00 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Puzzler to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Rod,

Thank you for the excellent explanation.

The picture makes sense to me too. I am not, nor was I, an engineer or the ilk, but my mind leans that way no worries. That would be fun to have and 'play' with.

Doug
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Bedrock Of The Community
Australia
38679 Posts
Posted 09/13/2010   01:12 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

It sure would Doug,
rather, I'd love to see it demonstrated. Some
of the Rose Engine work on banknotes is superb,
and on share certificates, as well.

This US is one of my fav's, the filigree seems to
be almost "floating", magic stuff.
I wish I was wealthy enough to own a copy

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Pillar Of The Community
United States
1947 Posts
Posted 09/13/2010   05:51 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rohumpy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
rod222, I have bid on that stamp several times. It always goes over what I want to pay. I agree with you that it is a great design. Oh well, some day I will have it "my precious"
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Bedrock Of The Community
Australia
38679 Posts
Posted 09/13/2010   07:13 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

One day, I hope I'll buy a ripped one, or thin,
or missing teeth.

Have you seen the one with value tablets?
(It didn't make it)

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Pillar Of The Community
United Kingdom
1356 Posts
Posted 09/13/2010   07:41 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stampgal to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Have you seen the one with value tablets?
(It didn't make it)

Thank goodness..
Mandrels are also used in jewellery making for sizing and working on rings.

The rose engine work reminds me of my old "Spirograph" set - anyone else have one of those? I think they still make them.
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Edited by stampgal - 09/13/2010 07:43 am
Pillar Of The Community
Canada
689 Posts
Posted 09/13/2010   12:02 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cdnum to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi,

Yes I found numbers on stamps. Some are difficult to read but I will try with a microscope... I don't find one with 77 plate :)

Thank you!
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Bedrock Of The Community
Australia
38679 Posts
Posted 09/13/2010   8:21 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
"Spirograph" set - anyone else have one of those?


Indeed Stampgal, what kid didn't have one of these
in the Chrissy stocking?

Actually, you are spot on with the connection, early stamp
designers engravers used a "reducing spirograph" to trace
the outline of a large picture down to stamp size.
These were called "Pantographs"



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Rest in Peace
Canada
6750 Posts
Posted 09/13/2010   8:33 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Puzzler to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Oh, I always wanted one of those.

Now I will have to go buy one and play again.
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United States
4788 Posts
Posted 09/14/2010   09:55 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add kirks to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It's like deja vu all over again...

I thought I remembered having this conversation before. A quick search and I found this ..

https://goscf.com/t/7216
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Bedrock Of The Community
Australia
38679 Posts
Posted 09/14/2010   10:25 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Instant recall, Kirk.

That inspires me to start a thread on the seven Diadems of QV
after seeing the St Vincent bust again.

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