Paypal Madness Has To Stop

scubu, are you working for Paypal?

You do not need to do anything.
You are obviously angry and in no mind to consider advice.
So be it.

rod222, I think you haven't taken in the essential information concerning this case.

The point is that Paypal expects sellers to be able to provide proof of postage. In Australia, you cannot do this - unless the item is sent by registered mail.

If the buyer declines to pay for registered mail and the item does not arrive, Paypal will take back the money from the seller's account and refund it to the buyer.

Thus the seller loses both the item AND the money.

I'd be most interested in knowing how you'd feel if this happened to you. Especially if it was a very valuable item.

Would you feel comfortable about losing a valuable stamp AND the payment for the stamp?

And of course I'm angry.

Paypal is effectively engaging in theft here - and encouraging buyers to claim that they haven't received their items so that they can get both the items and their money back.

A bank, by contrast, would not be able to take money out of someone's account on mere suspicion that the seller did not mail an item.

Jim, you don't know if Paypal would accept a receipt like rod mentioned without trying.
Other suggestions were given.

When you sign up to sell on sites like ebay and Delcampe, you submit yourself to a set of rules that you tacitly accept by signing up and selling.
It is ultimately up to you to come up with the means to protect yourself against situations like these.

I'm pretty sure a combination of a receipt plus a photo with the stamp envelope would go a long way to prove your point to Paypal.

You can also, as I've seen sellers do on other sites, state a condition that orders over a certain value must be sent registered at the expense of the buyer. As a buyer, if I spend over 100 euros or even 50 euros for stamps, I normally request registered shipping (even if it's 10 euros) as a security measure. I'm not about to risk losing something I paid 50 or more euros for because I don't want to pay 10 euros for registration.

Then send it by registered mail, or don't ship to that country, or make the customer pay it, and you won't get burned! It's not freakin' rocket science for crying out loud. If you don't do it Paypal's way you're not protected. What part of that don't you understand? Do you really think they give a rat's petootie about your emails when the rules are crystal clear and you already agreed to them? Deliberately ignoring the rules, because you don't like them, then whining about it after the fact is just pathetic.

scubu, what part of 'it's not viable to send items by registered mail at your own expense' don't you get?

'When you sign up to sell on sites like ebay and Delcampe, you submit yourself to a set of rules that you tacitly accept by signing up and selling.'

No, Delcampe is different. Paypal does not intervene in merchandise disputes unless the item was purchased on ebay.

By the way, on Delcampe the seller sets the rules. The seller has complete freedom to determine his/her Conditions of Sale.

Paypal ignores my ebay conditions of sale - in my case the specific condition posted on my seller's page that I do not accept responsibility if an item is lost or damaged in the mail.

In any case, there is no 'rule' that an item has to be posted by registered mail. some of the people who've commented above seem to be under this illusion.

You're out there aren't you? Oi.

Question: What does a normal business person do when something is not profitable?

Answer: They do it anyway and then complain about it to high heaven or blame someone else.

Answer: They stop doing it.

scubu, you're missing the point (deliberately, I'd suggest). I'm bringing my case to the attention of this forum's community because they need to know this kind of information in order to make an informed decision as to whether to sell stamps on ebay or whether to accept Paypal.

The details of my individual case are only being discussed in order to inform people who are choosing between various websites and methods of payment. I know that no one here can do anything about my situation and I know that Paypal is not going to reform itself anytime soon.

In short, anyone thinking of selling stuff on ebay needs to be aware what can happen if a buyer says they haven't received an item if that buyer paid with Paypal.


The problem is particular serious for Australians, as we cannot provide what Paypal considers acceptable proof of postage.

Sure you can, you just chose to roll the dice and not do it. You threw a seven, and now it's everyone's fault but your own.

Jim, you haven't even listened to the 2 suggestions mentioned here: receipt and/or photograph.

Secondly, it's not a problem of Paypal. On the Terms and Conditions of ebay, they state Paypal Buyer Protection is used (and ebay Buyer Protection now), so these rules overrule anything you put in your own conditions that are against these overall rules. Plain and simple.
So drop your beef with Paypal. It's also with ebay. And as I already said, you signed up and accepted the rules. You should have taken them into account when managing your store.
And the same goes for anyone else using ebay.

I'm a buyer and have come across plenty dishonest sellers. So dishonesty exists on all sides. Sometimes you have to be just lucky. I don't work with many different sellers and that's the defense I try to provide myself. First, luck, and then trust.

And there is buyer protection on Delcampe, via the support line. It's not as full proof as ebay and Paypal but it's something. Neither site is perfect:

- Ebay/Paypal allow for dishonest buyers to cheat sellers
- Delcampe allow dishonest sellers to cheat buyers

'Jim, you haven't even listened to the 2 suggestions mentioned here: receipt and/or photograph.'

A receipt is not accepted by Paypal. They want proof that an item was mailed to the specific individual.

I've already thought of the photograph idea and I already mentioned earlier in this threat that I was going to try it today for the first time.

You haven't been reading the thread carefully enough.

Obviously not.
It is uncomfortable, it is disappointing, and no doubt,
you feel cheated, but baying at the moon will not solve the problem.

It has happened thrice to you in a short time, which, to me
indicates a problem above normal failure rates, and you
need to put in place the best practice to avoid it re occurring,
or worse case scenario, cease trading.

You have been offered several options here, which members
feel would contribute to a more pleasant trading history,
we are not paypal, we can empathise, but that solves nothing.

Attach a label with AustPost receipt, email the purchaser/vendor
with a copy of the receipt with a short note
"sent today, here is your receipt number"

or take a photo.
these are the positives.

If you have been cheated, take some solace in the fact
these people never get away with it, I guarantee that,
bad karma catches up in time, there is no argument with that.

Don't allow one bad fish sully the waters of other, honest
traders I am sure you will meet in time.

Rod out

'I'm a buyer and have come across plenty dishonest sellers.'

How do you know they're dishonest?

The reality is that millions of items go missing in the post every year - 14.4 million in the UK alone, apparently. In such circumstances the overwhelming likelihood when an item doesn't arrive in the mail is that an item has gone missing in the post rather than that you've struck a dishonest seller who didn't mail it.