Paypal Madness Has To Stop

A point I want to emphasise is that when an item doesn't arrive Papal ASSUMES the seller is at fault. It ASSUMES that the buyer is honest when s/he says s/he hasn't received an item, and prefers the alternative conclusion, that the seller is dishonest.

There is an inherent bias built into the Ebay/Paypal behemoth.

So my advice: always pay with Paypal but never accept Paypal in payment unless you always insist that the buyer pays for registration.

In which case, you'll probably be lucky if you sell anything at all!

I checked with Paypal and this is what they have in print for "proof of shipment":

Proof of shipment is documentation or online verification from the shipping company showing a status of shipped, the shipping date, the address to which the package was sent, and official acceptance from the shipping company (for example, a postmark). It differs from proof of delivery because it only has to show that a package has shipped to the confirmed address on the account.

Registered mail of course is acceptable, but like Jim said, not feasible for low priced items. Nobody is going to buy a 99 cent item with $11-13 something tacked on. The picture that rod posted of course is not acceptable at all by Paypal as it lacks the receiver's address. While Certificate of Mailing is not availible in all countries and still a cost to the sender, there is an option open to all for free:

Use a CUSTOMS FORM on every international shipment you send no matter how small. The sender should have a receipt with the receiver's and sender's full address, the date and postmark. I have a folder full of these things.

'baying at the moon will not solve the problem.'

I didn't actually think that this thread would solve my Paypal problem. I also think bringing public attention to the entrenched biases of a huge power structure (in this case, the Ebay/Paypal power structure) does not constitute a case of 'baying at the moon.'

The context for this thread is debate here about the best way to sell stamps online. There is obviously a lot of discussion about ebay and Paypal, which is why quite a few sellers are shunning Paypal these days and gravitating towards alternatives like Delcampe.

I won't give up selling stamps, but I may well cease trading on ebay so long as it obliges sellers to accept Paypal. On the other hand, I can accept Paypal on Delcampe because generally Paypal does not intervene in merchandise disputes unless it concerns an item sold on ebay.

'Use a CUSTOMS FORM on every international shipment you send no matter how small.'

That could be the answer!

Would Paypal accept that, I wonder? Is the number trackable?

Note on Moneybookers (soon to be called Skrill). Yes, not as popular, but it's growing and more useful on Delcampe. It's jnot as Draconian as Paypal. While I haven't had any problems, Paypal/Ebay is getting worse and worse (I cringe whenever a new policy update is posted). I wouldn't want to be a new seller under Paypal/Ebays new rules where payment is held until the buyer leaves feedback (and of course sellers cannot leave feedback at all). It hasn't happened yet, but I'm waiting for the final straw to break the camel's back ....something like mandatory escrow service (owned by ebay, fees paid by seller). I would close my ebay account without thinking twice. Yes, there are rules, but just because there is a rule it doesn't make it right or fair.
Will

Paypal should accept a customs form since they have a picture of one as an example of "proof of shipment" on their web page.

There are numbers on the customs forms, but I don't know if they are trackable. There is no requirment that it has to be trackable.

Battleships, I really appreciate your constructive contribution to this thread. You are the first person who seems to have really understood what's going on.

I will definitely be using customs declarations on the two items I post next - and then sending scans to the buyers.

Of course, in the end it would come down to Paypal's discretion as to whether such a piece of evidence was acceptable.

Great suggestion!
I certainly shall try this with my next trade.
(and I maybe can go back to using stamps)

'Paypal should accept a customs form since they have a picture of one as an example of "proof of shipment" on their web page.'

This is very good news indeed, since fortunately Australian post offices have customs declaration forms!

Rod: I use stamps and customs forms on everything international no matter where it goes - no problems at all. My post office is so small they don't even have a meter machine.

noip: if you ship to Switzerland, include an internal invoice too as their customs likes to open things.

Will, that appears to be great advice,
it is interesting that, with my failure on
the very first trade, I made an appointment with the
postmaster, and sought advice on how I could get
proof of postage.
He did not recommend customs forms, but the labels.

Now, with a possible solution to jimjam's query,
has the status been lowered with your advice,
or does it remain "paypal madness" ?
To me, with your possible solution, it seems
clear as to why paypal supports the receiver
in cases where the despatcher has not proof.

Prior to your solution the support was curious.

'The sender should have a receipt with the receiver's and sender's full address, the date and postmark.'

Actually, Australian customs declaration forms only identify the sender. There is no information identifying the recipient. All you have is the number which is on the stub attached to the letter. I'll post a scan later today so everyone can see.

rod222, if I understand you correctly, you're asking why Paypal supports buyers against sellers.

The reason is, I think, to build confidence in the online auction systems, which depend entirely on good faith between buyer and seller.

The only way Ebay/Paypal can create the high levels of buyer confidence they need to make the kind of profits they do involves discounting the honesty of sellers and ignoring inconvenient facts, such as the massive number of letters and packages that go missing in the mail every year.

Check to see if you have different kinds of customs forms. There's two different U.S. forms (one for really heavy items/priority mail and the general use one). Both have both sets of addresses. In the last couple of years the U.S. form is now in triplicate; one part is held by the post office for 30 days, another is scanned into their computer system and the third part of separated into two parts - one part on the package and the receipt with addresses, postmark and date given back to the sender.

Yes, the onus, the reponsibility.
the sender is the only party that has
the means of which to prove despatch,
(not considering the cost of such proof)