1869 Pictorial Proof Series

I'd like to hear comments on these stamps regarding value. Also, please comment on the desirability of imperforate proofs. Their grade is VF-XF-85.I'm very new at this, so please keep that in mind. Thanks----

Imperf Proofs are a very "Specialist" collecting area, especially in U.S. material, and not something I would ever recommend to someone new to buy or start collecting. It takes a serious knowledge of period paper, inks and US Stamps as well as auction results in the area. There are some sets that are very good and very reasonably priced. There are also so nasty fakes that can fool even the best.

Grading and Pricing are their own science -- rocket science. Some dealers out there, like Jim Lee, offer excellent U.S. Proofs -- at the right price, while another offers the same at 2x and 3x times the price, and he envisions himself a bargain at the price. So Cavaet Emptor! The mere fact that something is graded doesn't a assure the asking price is worth the asking price.

Your didn't even mention if the material was US or not. And, by the way, being "very new at this..." is not a problem. I've been collecting a looong time and I learn new things about stamps EVERY day -- especially from other collectors -- and I still feel new at this. Good Luck and be careful -- very careful.

They are US Scott #112-122---

are you asking about a dealer OR about the proofs?

The proofs.

Here are Prices Realized:
Grade 97: Robert A. Siegel: 1975 Rarities of the World 1c-90c 1869 Pictorials, Large Die Proofs (112P-122P). Complete set; Bicolors exist only as hybrids, Very Fine EST $6,800 Realized $5,000
and here's another:
http://www.siegelauctions.com/lot_g...lledfrom=lkp

http://www.harmerschau.com/cgilocal...ter=4&page=1

I really like proofs. You will not encounter better color or impressions of classic US stamps than plate proofs. There are multiple categories and sub-categories of proofs that differ in value greatly. The most common, and consequently the least valuable, are Plate proofs on India paper. The next (and my favorite) is Plate proofs on card. The latter is easy to recognize and is extremely durable.

I have a full set of 1869 plate proofs on Card that I paid ~75% of catalogue value for. It is not uncommon to see sets of these sell at full catalogue value.

Grades of Plate proofs is almost always high. These were made from finished plates and subject to the best quality control since these were being presented as a finished product just prior to regular production.

My opinion on paying to have these graded is that it is unnecessary ... there are simply far too many excellent copies around. If the copies you're looking at are not graded by an expert committee, but rather the seller, then my reply to the seller about the supposed grade is "So what".

I am not a collector of Die Proofs or Trial Color Proofs so have nothing to add about them.






Can you elaborate on this a little? I've been specializing in 1869s for a very long time and have never encountered, nor heard of fake proofs.

The only thing I can think of is that people have perforated proofs (on stamp paper) in an attempt to make them look like mint postage.

Brian

Proofs are an excellent way to get some great looking items that are cataloged and usually many times cheaper than their original perferated matches.
You mention you are new to all this so my first question would be are you looking at them as an investment or for your collecting? If an investment then you really need to be aware - even certified as mentioned above does not mean the items are worth X more than another but does help you in some assurance they are actually what they are stated to be.
Papers and colors are a study in itself and proofs run from being on card stock to super light India paper to somewhere in between.
If you have the info of what they are I would do a bit of homework - ebay is probably best place to start - Just 2 days ago I did a search for US proofs and there were 1200 items with many at low prices and from reputable dealers.
WARNING- If you do get these odds are you will be hunting for more and you can add to the collection without selling a kidney!

I wanted to add all the proof categories so that there is no confusion. You need to know what type is being sold before making an informed decision on price. Each type has a significantly different catalogue value.

112-122 are listed in Scott as 112p - 122p. An additional number is added to the end of the catalogue number to identify the type of proof and paper.

EG:
112p1 is a 112 Large Die Proof.
112p2 is a 112 Small Die Proof
112p3 is a 112 Plate Proof on India paper
112p4 is a 112 Plate Proof on Card

The same convention applies to the rest of the set.

Brian

One of my first teachers (and best) teachers on U.S. Classic Stamps was an old-time dealer from Nassau Street in New York; his name was Ben Blue. He had a large U..S. Proof Collection -- sets of proofs that he used to demonstrate to me the various types including: ORIGINAL PROOFS, India Paper reprints on card, as well as sets of wide margined, well trimmed 'stamps' laminated to card stock -- created by the "old timers" to deceive. I don't remember the exact issues (too many years since I last saw the collection) they may not have been the 112p - 122p - I was speaking in general terms. I will say this: it was one of my first lessons about the U.S. Classic-period issues -- his comments, the stamps and proofs as a presentation, left a real first impression.

Thank you all----helpful, but of course confusing. As usual, I have to start at the beginning with anything new. What catalogues are available showing values? Also, I don't think I see any comments about the difference between perforated and not.

You will need Scott Specialized for the Proofs and Essays. I concur with the above statements, Proofs show off the beautiful work that goes into a Stamp (especially the engraved) and most can be had cheaper than the Stamp. I'll probably never have a mint Stamp like this in my collection so this Proof fits in very nicely.

Jim Lee is one of the largest dealers of Proofs and Essays. You can see the retail values for many proofs at his website - www.http://jameslee.com. Select "Essays and Proofs" from the choices at the top of the home page

The Scott Specialized catalog has a section for Proofs, which are impressions of the stamp as it was issued, and Essays, which represent design elements or trials that differ from the issued stamps.

With proofs, there are plate proofs, die proofs, proofs on card, india paper, bond paper.... as well as proofs made for the Roosevelt presentation albums, the Atlanta exposition, and the PanPacific Exposition. Each has a different value.

Additionally, there are trial color proofs - the design as issued, but in different colors than was issued.

Hope that helps.
C.

PS - edited to add that Jim's site has a bunch of broken links to images. However, there are lots of images still there.

PPS - edited again to recommend that you go to the Siegel Auctions website - www.siegelauctions.com. Under "Past Sales" and "Sale Listings," put the word "proof" in the single-owner search box in the middle of the page. Many catalogs of proofs will come up.

Since my first search returned me here to SCF, I'll just ask you...
explain "India Paper" please. I presume to be thin, w/ silk thread. But some examples would be good. Thanks all

The India paper used in the book printing industry is not to be confused with the India paper used by stamp producers for proofing purposes.

The India paper used for proofing is a soft, usually thin, somewhat fibrous paper that is bleached very white and typically shows bamboo fibers embedded in it. When I say "soft" I am referring to the fact that India paper is not very highly sized, but it does have some sizing agent in it. It is not a wove paper, but is a handmade paper of very even texture throughout. It is not made from wood. This soft paper, when lightly moistened and placed over a die or plate in the proofing press will let the raised lines of engraving sink in a bit and leave a much sharper inked image as the print. Because of this, it is invariably backed with a card blotter before the pressure is put on in the press. Printing this way causes the die or plate to sink into the blotter a bit, and smoothes the India paper out on the card backing, causing it to stick to the card. Die and plate proofs which display their original "sinkage" are much more desirable to specialists, and India proofs still on their card backing are preferred to those which have been popped or peeled off, especially since it is not uncommon that the act of removing the India from the backing may cause thinning.

Let me know if you want to see any examples of these things.