Is This A Mint 3c Z Grill, Scott 85c ? Or A Fake?

Is this a mint 3c Z grill, Scott 85C ? or a fake?

The grill is 14 points across by 18 points down; size is 11mm by 14mm. The points are down and the ridges look horizontal to me.

The stamp is mint with small remnants of a hinge; I found it in an old album from the 1950s with a few other classic US stamps that are clearly genuine. (I have my doubts about the gum, as it looks like it may have been applied after the grilling, but that's not my main concern at this stage.)

My first question is whether this is a forgery of a Z grill. As far as my understanding goes, the grill meets all the criteria, and is very clear; but I haven't seen a Z grill close-up before and so advice from those who have would be much appreciated. If there are specific photos that would be helpful for me to provide I'd be happy to oblige.

If there is any reasonable chance that this is a genuine Z grill, then my second question is where I should send it for a certificate. I live in the United Kingdom, so the easiest solution would be the Royal Philatelic Society. But would it be worth mailing such a potentially valuable item across the Atlantic to the APS, PSE, or Philatelic Foundation?

I'd really be grateful for comments from those with expertise in this area.

It doesn't appear to be a Z grill. Z grill ridges are horizontal. Your example shows vertical ridges.
That doesn't mean its fake. Could be a different grill.

there's only two now copies of the z grill
For sure it's a grill but not a z grill
It might be a 1868 3c rose George Washington grill

stampcrow, I'd like to learn from this. Can you explain what you see in the picture that tells you there are vertical ridges?

Thanks.

Your example


An example of a Z grill I found on the web.

I think it is probably a fake Z grill.

Now that I've added my opinion...wait to hear from some of the stamp experts on this site. I'm just an amateur. My opinion is not expert in any way.

Hi, I collect this issue...
The experimental grills which would be a, b, c, d and z are only available in the dull Rose shade. This one does not look to be Rose and it's anything but dull. I can't tell you what the shade is over the Web, but it looks more like the reds from the F grills to me.

And it does look like it could be horizontal ridges, and you can enhance it by scribbling with a soft lead pencil on a piece of paper and then transferring some of the carbon from the paper to your finger and then from your finger to the grill. The grill itself has such a strong impression it just doesn't look like it's real, at least to me. I've never seen any of the experimental grills with an impression that is this strong, and the perforated are almost too perfect. The experimental grills are known for their ragged perfs, off-centered appearance, and this stamp is almost too perfect.

I'd be very curious as to what type of opinion that you would get from the PF. Too many things are off with this stamp. I've been known to be wrong before, but I don't think it's genuine.

Thanks, and hope this was helpful. Ray

thanks to Ray.mac for a very helpful reply. The photo gives a pretty good idea of the original color, which is certainly not dull. Recent certificates for 85C at the Philatelic Foundation website ( http://pfsearch.org/pfsearch/ ) and on various auction sites do seem to show a fair variability in shade, perforation quality, and intensity of grill, insofar as one can tell on the web. I agree that the grill impression seems suspiciously strong--in fact the whole thing is perhaps just too perfect and bright. Or perhaps it is an essay of some kind? Given that there is so much talk about fake grills, I've been surprised that there are so few of them illustrated on the web.

On horizontal versus vertical points in Z grills: the lines drawn by Stampcrow in both photos are not across the points of the grills, but in the troughs between. To find the points, you have to look at each little square in the grid, and see if the summit is oriented horizontally or vertically. I'm attaching a closeup of the upper right hand corner of my stamp which I hope shows this reasonably clearly. On this image, the second grill point down in the far left row shows the horizontal character very clearly.

I'm a bit reluctant to highlight the grill even lightly with carbon....wouldn't this reduce the value even if (as seems most likely) it is an interesting forgery?

I am a bit suspect of the strength of the grill and that there might be gum applied over the grill. I can see why you are asking for opinions, the decision to spend money on a cert for this stamp is not easy.

Risk = frequency of occurrence X impact

Given the 'impact' (possibility of high value) side of the equation, I would lean towards sending it in for a cert. (If you don't, you may end up always wondering.) I would wait another few days and see if some of our experts may weigh in
Don

wow, know I see that I was not looking at the ridges but the valley in between.

Tried to mark in red what appear to be horizontal ridges.
Sorry I muddied the waters.

The rarity of this item would have been known in the 1950s. If there is no evidence in the album that the owner recognized the value of this item, to me, that would increase the odds that it is fake. Obviously this is not dispositive, it's just another item of evidence to consider in deciding whether to seek certification of this item. I also think there would be a market for this item, even if fake, to a specialist in this issue or in the grilled issues of this period, so it may be worthwhile to get the certificate regardless.

You could contact the Royal by email, with these images, and ask whether they consider themselves competent to expertise this issue, and if so, who would be on the expert committee. They may well refer it to a US-based Royal member who focuses on US classics, like Gordon Eubanks. Be prepared for a long wait, though, like 6 months, for certification.

Except for the stunning perfection of it, I don't see what the fuss is about. This is a candidate for submission to the PF for a cert. If they deem it authentic they will probably charge $450 for the cert (assuming the gum is not original) and you will have a stamp with $9000 cat which would fetch a good price at auction. If not, you're out $25-30 for a certified fake.

What we think of it here is immaterial, since you would want to have paper on this one in any case. The



Here is a side by side with a Z grill on a 2c in my reference collection, but the two images are not to scale. Nothing about the relative dimensions of the grill or the points can be observed in this, but the condition and orientation of the points can be seen.



If this is a fake it is artfully done. However, I have not seen many setoffs on these grilled issues, so in conjunction with a Z-grill it gives one pause.

There is a lot about this stamp that needs expert attention based on direct inspection. I cannot rule out the possibility it may have been impressed with a grill plate.

Thanks for these posts. If I was in the US, I probably would just have sent the stamp in for certification without asking, but being in the UK (as cjpalermo1964 recognizes) does make it more complicated: I'm not sure serious purchasers are going to be convinced by a certificate from the Royal, though I can look into that, and also how the PF would deal with something coming from abroad. One of my main worries, that this was a well-known or crude fake grill, seems unlikely on the basis of replies so far.

This does have "85C" penciled in on the back, so at least some acknowledgement of its status.

I'm sure they deal with this regularly and have established procedures, as well as courier services they recommend. (Don't use registered mail.) You should not hesitate to phone them in New York, explain the situation and ask which courier they recommend from the UK to provide appropriate tracking or insurance. This would also put you in contact with a specific person for follow-up purposes later.

It would be great to hear how this turns out for you.

Chris