Swiss Stamps - "Rayons "

Hello
I would like to know what is the difference between the type of the "stones" and the type of the stamp.
The types of the stamps can be found on internet.(full sheet before printing)

Example: For the Rayon II there are 40 (5x8) types of stamps shown on the tables of types ( typentafel).

But there are 7 stones for printing: Nr A1, A2, A3, B1, B, D, E.
My question is : What is the difference between a stamp ( example Nr 28) from the stone A1 and the stamp Nr 28 from the stone A3?
What makes the difference between the stones?
How can I determinate with which stone was printed a stamp ?


Thank you

I bet the additional stones were transfers from the originals. That is, they were drawn once, then transferred as needed.

To determine the stone I think you need to consult a specialist paper by Ernst
Müller: "Bestimmung der Drucksteine der Rayon II auf Grund der verschiedenen Feldmerkmale im Schwarzdruck", 2nd edition, 1986.

I bet the APS has a copy, but I see you are in Bulgaria.

There is also a book on Rayon I, not sure the author.

As Hungary said the individual stones (lithographic plates are called stones, the design is etched into the plate leaving voids where the ink goes) were created off a master set of dies. Each stone is an imperfect duplication of the dies, so it is possible to tell which stone a stamp is from by the small differences due to those imperfections.

@billsey
OK, but where can I find the différences between the stones ?
How can the experts declare that a stamp was printed with a specific stone?
Is there some tables, some sketches a.s,o. which show the différences between the stones?

You find this in the monographs that researchers wrote on Rayon I, II and III. As I suggested, the APS likely has a copy of the Rayon II. Maybe you can find the paper from another source such as a Swiss collecting society or the author. Perhaps someone else on this board has a copy and will respond. Search on the title and maybe you'll find it.

The books for Rayons I, II and III are referenced in this post from the Swiss Basler Taube forum.

http://www.baslertaube-forum.ch/ray...g-t2972.html

Rayon I:
Colombi/Städeli/Streiff Untertitel:
Bestimmung der Drucksteine der Rayon I hellblau aufgrund der verschiedenen Feldmerkmale im Blaudruck.

Rayon II:
Müller (Ernst) Untertitel:
Bestimmung der Drucksteine der Rayon II auf Grund der verschiedenen Feldmerkmale im Schwarzdruck.

Die Ausgabe Rayon III 15 Rp. grosse Wertziffer: René Gees

Problem: they are all out of print....

Regards, Philippe

Roughly the same way that experts tell the differences between more than one steel plate used to print the same stamp issue: scratches, spots of greater wear which leave traces in the printed results, spots where the die didn't transfer quite as completely or transferred in some unique manner, retouching/recutting/re-whatevering on one plate but not on another and so on and so forth.

If it is like that, it must exist sketches, designs, tables... of these scratches, particularities...
I never saw one of these sketches.
Is it a secret, known only by experts???
I don't think so but qhat else?

Yes,that's what the books and articles that have been recommended to you would give you. You need to obtain those books and articles.

It is not a secret, it is just specialized, and you have to hunt for it. Most collectors don't care to have the information, so the major catalogues don't spend the effort and the page space to show this stuff.

As you know, stamp collectors pretty rapidly become literature collectors, too. Some resources are published in editions of 50 or 100 copies, but they are out there...you just have to look.

It is kind of ironic that in this time of instant information, we may have less material available to us on a particular sub-specialty than a collector of 100 years ago. He just had to engage in a three-month chain of correspondence to obtain it.

Let me guess: you work primarily from Internet information? So do my college students. They don't understand how much valuable information is still found only in books. This is true even for my PhD students--they'd rather use an inferior edition of an old text that has been digitized and is on the web than a superior edition that has not yet been digitized.

I spent the first 30 years of my career painstakingly collecting books and articles so that I would have information for my historical research available at my fingertips in the future. I spent thousands of dollars traveling to libraries in Germany, Austria, France etc. to locate some of it. Most of it was acquired for me by my university library (free to me because I was at a major university but at a smaller one, not necessarily). I spent tbousands of hours photocopying from books borrowed via interlibrary loan that had to go back to the lending library.

Some of those books and articles (especially the articles) are now scanned and on the web, available with a few clicks (but only because my university library pays subscription fees and I have a password to access the articles via my university library). The journals for which I painstakingly accumulated complete runs of the issues lie packed away in boxes in my attic. I lugged boxes upon boxes of those journals--tons of them--through three changes of house. Now nobody wants those journals because they are available so easily. I don't bother looking at them because I too can get them on the Internet. I've starting bringing a box down from the attic each time I go up there because some day all those boxes will have to come down and go into the recycling. When I think how hard I worked at building a library to facilitate my professional research and how it's been rendered not only useless but a burden, it's enough to make a grown man cry--not because of lugging the boxes down and recycling them but

because my students don't have the faintest idea of that world in which books held so much awesome mystery. Books to them are nothing. Zero. Useless. Contemptible. That's why I weep.

The really specialized and older stuff, in my professional field and in stamp collecting, often has not yet been digitized. So there the old, laborious method still obtains.

The sketches are there. Just not "there" for a click or two.

edited for typo

Thank you for your opinions.
But my idea with this topic was (and still is) to understand what makes the différences between the stones !

I have the pictures of all the types of concerned stamps ( so called "typentafeln").
That concerns the stamps :
Orts Post + Poste Locale
Rayon I, II, III (red) III (blue)

If a stamp IS NOT within these pictures, it's a automatically a forgery.
That I can verify for each stamp.

I know what was the composition of the stones with these stamps.
I know the exact number of stone for each composition with the "typentafeln".

But, even after having found that a stamp is genuine, ans having found which number it has in the "typentafeln", I cannot determine from which stone it was printed.

What I am looking to find, it's
- to understand what make the difference between stones ( is it scratches?, color impression?, defects on the stones?...)
- name of books wherefrom I can find informations about that.

Thank you for your assistance.

Hmm, I think its the other way around with those types. If the stamp is one of the types then it is NOT a forgery. You said "If a stamp IS NOT within these pictures, it's a automatically a forgery". That is not my understanding because I (believe) the types are characteristics of genuine stamps, though not necessarily exhaustive of all possible types.

My limited understanding is the types represent the original and upon transfer to additional stones there may be some anomalies (as Hieronymus suggests) introduced which permit their identification. Think of this as two studies having been performed. Some enterprising researcher determined the characteristic types and then the additional authors noted above performed more extensive research to essentially plate the different Rayon issues.

(edited for typos)

Priatel, over the past couple of weeks I have done some homerwork for you. I do collect Switzerland so I am marginally interested in these stamps.
I have found two items of interest that you could possibly persue.
First of all, the American Helvetia Philatelic Society has a journal called "Tell". In the past four issues appeared a translation of an article that appeared originally in July 2014 in the Helvetia Philatelic Society Bulletin. The four part article in Tell is called "Good to know" and talks about the six stones made for the stamps Zumstein 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 & 20. Maybe you can somehow get these articles?
Another possibility is the English website www.swiss-philately.co.uk
On the homepage go to "Swiss Philatelic Information", then click on "Federal Issues".
You will find the type tables on this page, but if you actually want to use these tables click on the links below each table. For even better imaging press the + button to really bring out the detail.
If you print the tables choose the highest resolution on your printer, and use full-color rather than black and white. Also, use 'auto' or 'photo', not 'text' to get the best reproduction. Use 'fit page' if you do not use A4 size paper.
I hope this helps you a bit in your undertakings!

Peter

Hieronymus, that is so true and how much information will be lost
since so many books are now thrown out instead of being
passed on.

When I think of what will happen to the hundreds of books
in my library many passed down from my parents and grandparents
it saddens me.
It's the same for all that other "old Stuff"
The young ones don't want it and is a burden as you say.

Thanks for your post.

@Peter4522
Thank you for your information about the American Helvetia Philately Society AHPS.
I will become soon a member of it.( a question of day)

Meanwhile, I would like to know if the past four issues of the Tell journal can be checked on the net ?
In any case, I will ask for it to the AHPS.

PS: Tor the tables of all the types of the stamps, I found them here:

http://www.pro-philatelie.info/fael...z/rayon.html

You can zoom it till the size you want