Need Help To Identify. Scott 20 Or 23?

This stamp caught my eye-- light cancel and well-centered. Thought it was no brainer, Scott 20, until I read description. I guess I could plate it but would take significant effort, especially if I start looking at plate 2, and its really from another plate, such as plate 1L.

Any thoughts?





from Schuyler Rumsey Auction Oct 13-15


"1857, 1¢ blue, type II. Plate 2, light town cancel, intensely rich color and sharp early impression clearly showing recut at top, choice centering, Extremely Fine, a stunning stamp, with 2001 P.S.E. Graded certificate (XF 90, SMQ $850).
Scott No. 20; $275. (Image1)"

rg - Its a modified T relief - Top Row stamp, with guide dot at UR.
Most likely plate 2, small chance 1L but probably 2.

I'm headed out the door right now, but only 20 positions you need to look at if its plate 2 - which it most likely is -- I don't see any bottom recut and being top row, it can't be recut at top.

Txstamp... good advice, definitely looks like T relief... thus top row!
Obviously can't be top row plate 1L if recut on top, as no such thing as recut at top from top row.
Thus must be top row plate 2... favoring 7R2, 3R2 ????

Just an over-zealous stamp describer for Schuyler

There is also a perforated 10R4 (used) up for auction. We have discussed rarity of that stamp before, but if I recall imperforate is more difficult than perforated version?

Right - imperforate 10R4's are crazy rare items.
The perf counterparts are definitely scarce, and very desirable, but the imperforate ones are really downright rare.

I think 8R2 is a pretty good candidate. Looks like a bit of DT visible above Ornament T at UL.

I think 8R2 is correct. Pretty generous grade for the stamp too. Really small margins, rounded corner, short perfs...

how about this one? from upcoming Siegel auction catalog. I like the cancel here.

I think its top row T relief? Not recut at top?

I'm sorry to continue to go through these exercises but I have come along way with plating in last year or two and basically learn/study from plating stamps that I find interesting coming up for auction. I just keep second-guessing myself when something is described possibly wrong??? You guys/gals make me feel better.

1c Blue, Ty. IV (23). Plate 1L, recut once at top and bottom, radiant color on bright paper, neat strike of red New York City carrier datestamp, well-proportioned margins, Extremely Fine, a beautiful stamp and especially desirable with the red carrier cancel, with 2013 P.S.E. certificate (Image)

Another Modified T relief, but this time it will be top row left pane, Plate 1L, Ty IV, Sc #23.

It is recut once at bottom only, not recut at top.

Somebody needs to point out that top row Plate 1L stamps aren't recut at top. ... at least not that we know of.

Those red NYC carrier cancels always look great, and are nice to get on 1c stamps.

This one looks like 8L1L.

I agree Dudley 8L1L. Amazes me how many get fooled by this "recut at top" on the top row plate 1L stamps that doesn't exist... Eyes are playing a trick on you.

Maybe txstamp suggestion that there was a recut at some point that we just don't know about holds some validity but doubtful

I think that for the top row stamps, they fully rocked in the Modified T relief, at top, which created a pretty strong top line. Furthermore, the positions were re-entered when Plate one was reworked to make 1L, so that would only have strengthened them.

On these late impressions, the shallower lines of detail wore thin, which makes the deeper lines, like the top line, look even stronger, and appearing as though they might be recut. I think its kind of an optical illusion with these late impressions from 1L.

Not to discriminate Kelleher from all this madness regarding stamp descriptions of the one cent Franklin:

upcoming Kelleher auction:

1857, 1¢ blue, type IIIa, double transfer (Scott 22 var.), plate 4, neatly placed black town cancellation, with near perfect centering and breathtaking rich color; an astounding example of type IIIa that would be difficult to match, Extremely Fine, with 2012 P.S.E. certificate graded XF 90.
SMQ XF 90; $1,825.
Estimate $1,500 - 2,000. (Image)






gorgeous stamp, but is it a "double transfer, Scott 22 var"???????

Thoughts? (out of respect to the 10R4 DT mentioned above)

I have this as F relief 58R4 perhaps.

Interesting stamp. There is one recorded double transfer on plate 4 and it is 10R.
To cut to the chase, my gut answer on this one is "no" it's not a DT or at least I don't think there's enough there to prove one here. A better scan of this might be useful. Of particular interest are the O and E of ONE. I had an imperf 58R with a later more worn impression than this one. I recall the E-tick, I'll call it - I believe that to be dead consistent on this position from several I've seen. I don't recall mine as having the O scratches. I think your plating of 58R will be right - that E mark is reliable, as I recall.

Plate 4 is really difficult to plate material from. It was in use for a short time, and wore very quickly. I'm sure it was not hardened. As a result, no two plate 4 stamps - even from the same position, look quite the same. You will get one copy with a preponderance of plating marks like this one, and another, with few to none of the same. I had a 4 margin pair that took me 7 years to finally plate.

Anyway, for this stamp:
- O scratches remind me of same on plates 2 & 3. Not DT related I don't think
- E tick is solid mark on this position. There are numerous curls and odd foreign matter marks on plate 4. My guess is this is another.
- other marks of color are largely inking I think and not on the plate

Final thoughts
- plate 4 was the first 1c 6 relief transfer roll plate. I think that dramatically reduced the number of double transfers due to fewer roll settings required.
- there may be more DTs on plate 4 - and the place to look would be in early impression (perforated) stamps like this

More thoughts about where to look for DTs on plate 4:
- the 6th row - where this stamp is has the guide dots at LR (when not burnished off)
- this was the F relief and the C relief is beneath it. This does mean that the bottom of a B relief would be just over the bottom of the 6 th row F's due to guide-reliefing. That could certainly create fun issues right where we are looking on this stamp.

The problem is getting good impression multiple copies of all of these stamps is hard. Also, the burnishing tool during plate finishing wiped out much of the bottoms of the 6th row stamps.

RG- if you want to collect another really neat plate position get a 59R4.
It has very large plumes & looks quite cool !