Anthony's Llc Dismal PF Report Card = Follow Up To 10/23/17 Discussion

I guess you are right. I give up. I am willing to bet this item has sold on the ultra-safe SAN at some point. No knowledge required... just buy certified items. If anybody wants the truth, you will have to ask. In stamp collecting, curiosity keeps the cat alive.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/26A-XF-OG-....m1438.l2649

At least SAN does not turn a blind eye to deliberate fraud and profit from it. Not sure what to say about SAN = " no knowledge required". You got me on that one.

The risks of purchasing higher value stamps (reimbursement of certs for bad material, finding decent dealers) is what drove me to expand my collecting to include other countries. Even good dealers make mistakes.

Rogdcam -

You do not need more coffee & your comments are nowhere near disjointed. (Based on what you've written, I'd like to see the caffeinated version!)

However, it is late & I have definitely had too much wine! Perhaps after coffee in the morning I can reply in an equally-non-disjointed manner?!

Your points are well-made & without question, YoP (as a proxy for all of those we would like to see become active participants in our hobby) deserve a better answer - which I will offer.

The 'four reasons' which you eloquently summarized are certainly accurate and valid. For anyone - in any marketplace. Yet I assume Mr. YoP did not drop onto our planet from some distant galaxy, last October, and suddenly decide to spend hundreds of his newly discovered Earthly money on rare stamps on ebay.

This seems to have the potential to rapidly deteriorate, so I'll leave it there for tonight...but I will elaborate, with a bit more coherence, when I get my blood-caffeine level back to socially-acceptable standards...

Don: Why can's ebay sponsor "phantom purchasers" and send out the stamps to PF for the definitive answer to what is legit and what is not? If they generate $300,000,000 of annual sales in this "little" category a $50,000 annual budget for unbias quality control would be a reasonable attempt at pretending to care.

In terms of coming from outer space. I did collect stamps from 1975-1978 under my father's encouragement when I was about 10 - 14 years old. I had a used set of US and Canadian stamps and went to shows with my dad at Regis College in Weston. But I stopped in 9th grade to chase girls instead of stamps.

Fast forward, after working 30 years and raising a family, I found myself with two things in Oct 2016 (as an empty nester). I had some time and some cash so why not allocate % of my investing/FU money into collectibles (i.e US stamps) for the enjoyment first and foremost.

I did not start off in the deep end. I purchased from approximately 30 ebay sellers (but not Anthony's LLC) and sent scores of stamps off to PSE to review. Only one counterfeit coil out of close to 200 submitted. This gave me a false confidence with ebay in general. I purchased most of my "high value" stamps with Anthony's LLC thinking he was legit between May and July 2017 and stopped altogether with Anthony's after my conversation on 10/23/17 on this Board. I stopped using ebay on 12/13/17 when I found out 95% of Anthony's stamps were FAKES from PF.

I'm not discurreged I have come up a learning curve on an accellerated basis IMO which has real value to my as a serious collector of US Classics.

In all honesty, I used to buy from this guy, back in 2011-2012. There were never any expensive item (usually $10-40 items) and I didn't have a problem.

A couple of years into ebay and Anthony's, around 2012-2013, his newsletters started becoming a blathering sales pitch for the wonders of ebay. He came across like that guy at a party who just has to impress everyone in the room with how much he knows, throwing out his "wisdom" on the business model and how wonderful it was... gakk, gakk, blah, blah, blah)I hadn't seen anything like that since I left the USN and a couple of gold star award winning bootlicks behind.

I discontinued my subscription to his newsletter (it really was a piece of work - wish I'd saved some of them to show you guys) and since I haven't bought but two small items, the last being early 2016.

I don't know where he took that hard left to Albuquerque, but it's become horrible - as is well documented on this forum. I don't even look at anything he lists, whether I need it or not, because it's my choice not to support him.

I am not knocking anyone who does, but this is my choice. As ebay has "turned a blind eye" to his operations - and now appears to be supporting them to some degree with the removal of feedback, I've been mulling over whether to even continue using ebay. I probably will, because there ARE good sellers on it, but it bothers me that ebay is so wrapped up in their bottom line now that they just don't seem to care.

I can remember when you could call someone at ebay and get someone in this country (USA) who would talk with you and then do something about a problem. Now, if you call ebay, you're going to get Sally or Joe in Manila. They're polite but they wouldn't know the front of a stamp from the back of one, let alone be willing to do anything about a problem like YoP has experienced (BTW YoP - ).

I'm thinking seriously about using hipstamp as my go to now. Many of the sellers I like on ebay are on there, so I might just spend more of my time on that site instead.

Stampman2002, I think the fact you were buying less expensive stamps in 2011-12 is why you did not have any Anthony's problems then. I know that in 1998 he was deceiving people on the more expensive items on ebay. That year I was transferred to Scottsdale and a young doctor lived 3 doors down from me. We discovered that we both collected stamps and one day he showed me his new NH Zep set freshly bought on ebay from Anthony's. I did not have any Zeps then so was envious until I looked a little closer. There were undisclosed problems on all 3 stamps, including the fact that none were NH! The C15 actually had a subtle but visable (from the back) repaired tear. Not a small perf tear, a real tear of the body of the stamp. I let him down as easy as I could and suggested he try to return them but he ultimately said he was too ashamed to go back to ebay to report the problem. He became disinterested in stamps the rest of the time I was in Scottsdale (about another year) and I assume he did not continue in the hobby. To me, this is the real danger of such a seller; they drive new entrants from the hobby. But Anthony's didn't change suddenly in 2012; they have been using their present MO for a long time.

My experience is that it is not beginners who have serious fraud problems as much as the "advanced beginners" who have collected for some years and think they know more then they do and think that they have spotted a bargain. Those are the people who get taken for real money.
Expecting ebay to do anything about this is tantamount to expecting to win the lottery. There is really nothing anyone can do to hurt them, it's small potatoes, and they don't care. Anthony's has been in business for over 50 years; they are not going to change now. All people can do is spread the word.

Received the January 2018 issue of The American Stamp Dealer & Collector today. Just took it to bed to read (as I usually do) and when I read this, I thought I'd post it. For you who have been posting to this topic, and may wish to express your views or invite him to review this (and other posts on the topic of ebay). Here's his e-mail: editor@americanstampdealer.com and the phone number: 1-800-369-8207. Its hard to read, but it had to fit in the 200 limit. This is the publication of the ASDA. Going back to bed now.....

Well the discussion has certainly continued & interesting, although can't see tangible progress coming anytime soon...

To some points from prior pages:

No, we don't have good data about the quantity of fraud pre/post ebay. But not a quantity discussion - fraud/deception/dishonesty existed in our hobby from day 1. All dishonesty is bad. The guy cutting perfs off a #304 100 years ago is as guilty as the modern ebay scam artists.

YoP felt 'safe' to buy, based on the 4 reasons stated. One of those 4 was ASDA. That has absolutely nothing to do with ebay. Yet I cannot recall anyone bashing ASDA or APS - certainly nowhere near what ebay receives. These are the supposed 'watchdogs' of the hobby - what have they done to combat this problem? I have a much bigger problem w/ASDA/APS than with ebay...

As to the other 3 ebay 100% safe nonsense: YoP has stated that he won his claims & got his money back. (At least some - for those claims within the allowed time period?) Well this shows the system worked - correct? If the item was not as advertised, it was returned & money refunded. (I understand - this is an ongoing situation - but some were refunded thus far..and it sounds like you waited months, which is perhaps the issue with the remaining items...)

You sent 200 items to PSE? Within the first few months of starting to collect? And you don't consider this the deep end?? I would suggest it is the deepest part of the deep end. By definition - certs are for the rarest & most complex stamps to identify. And you had 199 out of 200 good certs? All from ebay purchases?? Sounds like an awesome % to me?! Seems you did very very well - on ebay!

When I spend my hard earned money, I know what I am buying. If I don't, I try to learn more - before making the purchase. Certs can then confirm/refute my opinion. Sounds to me like you were (are?) using certs to tell you what you bought. And you got 199 good certs - sounds like alot of very good sellers, who properly described what they were selling. Right??

Obviously ebay & a flea market are different. But everyone keeps talking about ebay as a pseudo-stamp auction network. ebay is a tech company. They created the platform. This exact conversation could be for any of thousands of categories. Do you really expect ebay to be the expert & police each category? That's wildly unreasonable & unrealistic. Spend $50,000 - (per category???) - to offer quality control?? If I worked at ebay, I would laugh at this. Shareholders would scream. And ebay has won many many cases in court - they are not liable, as the platform provider. It is a private transaction, between buyer & seller. You can take the seller to court! This has not happened - or at least hasn't stopped them from selling - because it is generally not worth the time & expense.




These are important comments. I completely agree with 99% - hazing is unacceptable; we don't want anyone getting ripped off - new or old collectors. This site - Don's great work on stampsmarter - we're providing as much education as possible - for anyone who wants it. Lots of new folks constantly popping in - and everyone giving good advice & being patient with the novice questions. The folks seeking to find winning lottery tickets are not looking to become collectors.

I am certainly not 'blaming' buyers for lack of education. And it sounds like our current subject - YoP - (sorry! You're here & a good example - but just using you as a proxy for all 'new' collectors!) - has not done badly. But buyers must exercise a certain minimum amount of caution. These weren't little purchases - this was $hundreds, if not $thousands.

More than anything, I want to make sure we're targeting the true problem here...

I grew up in the antiques business. (not stamps - watches!) ebay has transformed & revolutionized the entire collectibles industry - very rapidly. I believe they have been the biggest boon to collectibles - and stamps - than anything else - ever.

The problem is a few bad eggs. We know their names - we talk/complain//moan about them - alot!

ebay has thousands - tens of thousands - of honest & reliable sellers. 99%. YoP has demonstrated this - without question! ebay has created massive headaches for sellers - as all of you sellers know! It is tough operating a monopoly & keeping everyone happy! Stampman2002 - you're going to hipstamp? Go for it - good luck with that. The range/selection/depth of ebay dwarfs all other sites combined - by a magnitude that is staggering.

The article posted above seems about right to me. Learn - ask - enjoy - and certainly exercise caution. ebay 'aint perfect - nothing is. But it is here to stay.

Excellent commentary mdroth. I actually agree with your overall view. The most egregious aspect of this case for me, besides the fact that Anthony's sold misrepresented/altered stamps, is that ebay removed his feedback. It may have been technically correct due to length of time between purchasing and commenting. I do not know all of the rules of engagement.

The 200 coils submitted leaves me scratching my head. Given that the lions share of US collectors acquire and collect by Scott's number doesn't that many coils, if all different, start getting well into rarified territory.

YoP stated that he reported this matter to the ASDA. Let me go out on a limb (tongue in cheek) and make a prediction. Nothing will happen. Anthony's will proudly display the ASDA symbol forevermore.

People will do what they do. Some folks on SCF patronize the cartel/PR and rationalize it.

My personal opinion is that collectors need to stick to purchasing items with good late model certificates for items that cost more than they would be comfortable losing.

I for one do not accept the premise that education is the cure all when purchasing online for the simple reason that you are not physically examining the item in question. Education is all important but only goes so far when limited by a two dimensional pixel party which in the case of some sellers is artfully and deliberately composed in their favor.

Back to the coffe pot.
.

The deck is stacked against those who want to help our hobby with this issue.

First it is easy to get demoralized by those who do not care; throwing out a 'buyer beware' with a shrug has more impact than they might think. But there are even those who push back against anyone who tries to educate buyers. When I first started Stamp Smarter with this purpose, I caught a raft of crap from many people. You can search this forum and see those who were very critical of Stamp Smarter trying to educate buyers. ' ebay police' and 'witch hunt' were things they called anyone who wanted to publicly report on this issue.

There is also a large number of ethical people who also sit on the side lines of this issue. Some are folks who prioritized their interests first; examples include those who will support the bad sellers as long as they are getting what they want. But others do this because even while they are quite ethical and care about the hobby, they do not want to risk being involved in drama and controversy. We have a lot of very knowledgeable and experienced people that choose to remain silent due to this reason. In my opinion, the ASDA rules which disallow members from bad mouthing each other encourages remaining silent in this situation. While I understand the intent of this rule, it has the unintended side effect of not allowing them to communicate on offending members like Anthonys.

APS answer to this issue is to tell hobbyists to instead struggle with their 'less than ideal' APS store or circuits. APS has a HUGE marketing advantage with the fact they actually vet the sellers, they are APS members and it is easy to enforce ethical behavior. Instead APS has stumbled and squandered this advantage for years with two selling mechanisms that are highly inefficient and inconvenient to use. And apparently according to APS, ebay does not even exist for anyone seeking to buy stamps. If you go to their Where-to-Get-Stamps page (https://stamps.org/Where-to-Get-Stamps) they do not even mention ebay! ebay? What's ebay? No acknowledgment that a large number of members and others will continue to use ebay, no help for anyone trying to make better informed ebay buying decisions.

And why is no one calling out Linn's and the rest of the philatelic press? It is bad enough that APS and ASDA have their heads in the sand on this issue, why would Amos not have a hard hitting reporter who is willing to dig into this issue? Surely they care about their revenue stream, so why not try to educate and inform hobbyists of this issue? It is not like ebay spends money with them. Does not Amos have an interest in helping hobbyists make better buying decisions? How about a multi-part series on Ryle (British Cartel)? It is not like they would fear any legal retribution, the have the First Amendment. PR does not have the funds to fight a legal battle in this country since he is not allowed back in and has declared bankruptcy.

Education. Education Education. To those who have been beating this drum for years, thank you. We are alone, no organized help is coming. Grass roots efforts like this community and working alone has been the ONLY weapons in this war.
Don

Don, I like your post and I probably care a lot more than you think. I wish I could reach out to every ebay member and tell them the way of the world. One of the things that I have thought about doing was somehow spread the word about SCF via my ebay listings. If every seller here did that, it could help bring people to the light.

The light is education, it is the only thing that can protect you.

It was not 200 coils it was 200 US stamps ranging from a half dozen #1 to many wanta be graded mint nh 1900-1930's. I ended up spending almost a much on services as my sample but that was a heads up choice. Only one came back out and out counterfeited, that was one of 7 coil pairs sent in. The other 199 were not all clean by any means! All the standard issues of re-perf/ creases /sealed tears/ one with a pin hole repair and one real stamp misused on a cover. I got back close to a 100 graded/clean opinions (70+ - I know not investment grade!) items back but a lot of issues too. I would say these non counterfit issues are buyer beware risk I was willing to take. The FRAUD of Anthony's without reasonable commercial protections is what chaps my ass. I appreciate ebay can claim no responsibility but that is bad ESG period. PayPal is eithical and refunded me for all Anthony's transactions that fell in 180 days. I did not return any stamps to get this refund since the depute was uncontested (PayPal said they would run a full review on his account if he did dispute).

I plan to do an all-or-none deal on the returns if he pushes this issue. He told the NJ bbb he offered me a full refund on Anything I wanted to return. BS just like his A+ ratings at the bbb. Okay I want to return everything now Marc!

I will send back everything purchased in 2017 and he sends me a full refund otherwise he will need to take legal action and the facts of the case are not on his side. I recover a little over 40% in total. My delay was in testing was not unreasonable because I thought there was a one year limit on FRAUD. Nope just 30 days with ebay and kick the can to PayPals ledger allow fraud claims for up to 6 months. Shame on me for this miscalculation on time limits for FRAUD.

In terms of the deleted feedback ebay said my comments (calling out Anthony's report card - 95% FAKE violated policy because my comment did not directly relate to item/Stamp sold, which as true in most cases but not all. Some were direct quotes from PF certs on the exact item without any policy violations still removed.

Disappointed ADSA is predicted not step up and protect their reputation. That's just plan sad on many levels.

Thank you to all the sage info and I now know I don't have to hire help as PSE to validate I'm not dumb money, like I was with MG.