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Is Pinkish Paper Still Accepted As A Variety On The Bank Note Stamps?

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Posted 05/15/2018   07:20 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Seriously? He can save his money and see that it has obviously been soaked and has red/pink transferred to it.
Just re-soak the stamp for 20 minutes and see if the water becomes red/pink and/or stamp loses pink. Geez.
Don
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Posted 05/15/2018   07:27 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
no, not sending it in for certification, but talking to the PF, asking about their example, perhaps showing a scan of his stamp.
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Posted 05/15/2018   09:28 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lokidog99 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I've sent an inquiry to PF requesting a preliminary assessment base on same photos I posted here on the forum. Depending on their response I'm willing to submit it for certification evaluation. Is there a fee for that service?
Brad
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Posted 05/15/2018   10:30 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cjpalermo1964 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
To my knowledge the PF does not do a "preliminary assessment" for free. If it did, far fewer people would pay and submit items for certification. Even identification alone is done via the minimum certificate cost of $27. The late Bill Weiss used to do such "preliminaries" for $5, but to my knowledge no one has filled that gap since his passing.

PF fees range from $27 to over $300 depending on stamp value as explained here:

http://www.philatelicfoundation.org...ns/#WhatCost
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Edited by cjpalermo1964 - 05/15/2018 10:31 am
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Posted 05/15/2018   10:48 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I have read several times that someone sent an email and a scan to the PF and they answered if it would be a good idea to send it in or not. In this special case it's even more interesting to get an idea from the PF as this is about a stamp which is not in Scott anymore but was in the past and is in the collection of the PF. So the answer alone if they accept this stamp still today as own variety would be interesting already.
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Posted 05/15/2018   1:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lokidog99 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Well, PF replied this morning as follows:

"Unfortunately the variety of 216 was removed from the catalog years ago. No expertising service could or would certify it. One could spend thousands with ink & paper experts determining that the variety occurred at the time of printing, and was not artificially created, but the end result would be pointless; it is a curiosity, nothing more.Sorry, but thank you for the inquiry.
philatelic foundation"

The basis for the PF dismissal seems primarily to be its removal from the catalog. But the removal from the catalog (I'd assume) is that in spite of mention of it in the 1913 Mekeel's Weekly, no certifiable stamp has apparently been found.

Hypothetically I wonder, if the pink coloration could be proven present at the time of printing, would anyone care to comment on the potential significance of this stamp, or would it simply be a "curiosity" as PF suggests?

I guess I'll just preserve it for one of my descendants to noodle over.

Brad
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Posted 05/15/2018   2:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lokidog99 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
One last piece of information to add to the puzzle. Scotts 1902 edition specifically ID's the pink varient and details about its production and a (then) current owner of a number of the stamps. So regardless of the authenticity of my stamp, there is strong evidence that several existed in 1902.

So the mystery deepens.

Brad

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Posted 05/15/2018   3:36 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you very much, Brad. This is really helpful to know the opinion of the PF about this. This means that the PF does not know what qualifies a 5c Garfield as "pinkish paper" except the color. I hope very much that in the future somebody decides to do some research about this specific stamp sitting at the PF, as we do have such good technology today that it should be absolutely possible to see if there are some indicators in the paper of this stamp at the PF which is different from all other 5 Garfield stamps. It should not take thousands of hours. Also, when Luff said that the "true" pinkish paper really looks very pinkish (and not pale pinkish), and this evenly across the whole stamp, and this is the example at the PF, I still don't understand why Hahn, who saw this stamp in person, tells us the color to be similar colorful as the bluish paper, so not really pinkish. I am not living next to New York, but perhaps some other collector visiting the PF will have a look at this stamp for a more recent description.

Until any research of better description of this item will be there, I will still keep any 5c Garfield being potentially pinkish paper.

essayk, if you have more information about the Joseph Schnoble stamps like a link, let me know.
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Posted 05/15/2018   4:04 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

I also have a pink one.


Don
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Posted 05/15/2018   4:15 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply


It took only a few minutes to soak a Christmas envelope and drop the stamp in it. Note: Older red Christmas envelope were even less color-fast then modern envelope. Also note the unevenness. I am sure with a bit more time, I am sure that I could make it look even more convincing.

In next day or so, I will resoak to see if the red comes back out into the water.
Don
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Posted 05/15/2018   7:46 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essayk to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
One last piece of information to add to the puzzle. Scotts 1902 edition specifically ID's the pink varient and details about its production and a (then) current owner of a number of the stamps. So regardless of the authenticity of my stamp, there is strong evidence that several existed in 1902.

So the mystery deepens.

Brad


You do not understand correctly what that work is from 1902. I understand that you are eager to establish your stamp as an undiscovered rarity. I get it. But let me caution you that speculation is no substitute for good research, though I do admire and applaud your effort in turning up Luff. But we've been there before.

The mystery is not deepening. You just failed to read one of the paragraphs I wrote and posted earlier in this thread. Now, if you want to understand, you need to carefully read all of what I have written here, starting with the earlier paragraph.


Quote:
The 5c Garfield is a different matter. In his magisterial work of 1902, John Luff reported that a single unused example of the 5c on paper with a decidedly pink tone was shown to him by a Mr. F. O. Conant of Portland, Maine. Conant reported that a local collector had purchased a lot of ten or fifteen such at the Portland Post Office in 1889. Among the group was a top margin plate number pair, in which the color ran evenly all the way through the margin to the edge. The evenness of the coloring precluded that it was some kind of accidental stain. Luff says no more about it, but the variety is listed in the first U.S. Specialized in 1926, and continues to be listed as an "a" or "b" subvariety until 1973, when it disappears. It was not moved to the proof section, nor does it resurface in 1992 with the essay section.


Permit me to direct your attention to vol 3, page 20 of the 1967 work by Lester Brookman on the United States Postage Stamps of the 19th Century. There Brookman quotes a 1946 letter from J. Murray Bartels to a customer who had won an auction lot consisting of another 5c blue on pinkish paper. The house wanted to confirm that the example to be sent was indeed what was at the time listed in the Scott catalog as a variety, so they submitted it to two of the most prominent authorities of the day, one of whom was John Luff himself. The authorities could not agree, so the house gave the man the lot at no charge, convinced for their part that it was indeed the correct variety.

But in that letter they go into some detail about how, in the discovery of the original examples which gave rise to the listing, Conant had procured one of the originals for his collection. Unfortunately, by the time his collection was sold to Luff, that stamp had become stuck down to an album page, and subsequently soaked off. Its value as a comparison copy was completely compromised. Nonetheless, in Luff's recollection of that original stamp, it was a deeper shade of pink than the copy Bartels was offering, and even in its soaked condition it was a deeper pink. Hence the generosity of the house in releasing what must be called a "might have been."

Today, the PF owns and is caretaker for the Luff reference collection, and that stamp, sans gum, may still be there. But without gum its value as a comparison reference is nil. As for the absence of gum, Brookman reported that a couple of used stamps were supposedly accepted by some as authentic originals of this variety, but how that was done and by what authorities is today unknown to the PF. Usually something that connects the used examples to an authenticated original find is noted in an affidavit and submitted as corroboration. But even that is not known to exist today. So, without a good basis for re-establishing the existence of the variety the PF considers the matter closed, as you have seen for yourself.

As for your stamp, the pink color is not uniformly distributed over the entire range of paper, and would be disqualified by any competent authority familiar with the case. Today the burden of finding authenticated corroborating copies will be upon anyone making the kind of claim you would like to make about your stamp.
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Posted 05/15/2018   11:06 pm  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
One could spend thousands with ink & paper experts determining that the variety occurred at the time of printing, and was not artificially created, but the end result would be pointless; it is a curiosity, nothing more


I don't understand why it would then be nothing but a curiosity.

But yours (as others have pointed out) is NOT such a stamps as the color is uneven.
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Posted 05/16/2018   09:20 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essayk to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I don't understand why it would then be nothing but a curiosity.


That was the opinion of the person at the PF who wrote that. There is some wiggle room for interpretation, but the people who collect EFO material at the highest levels are the ones who would advise the PF on how to classify a mistake. Errors, Freaks, and Oddities have a system for classification, and a major presence in the domain of organized philately. I would refer you to them for a discussion of how they determine the classification of material.

In this case, the scarcity of the variety indicates that it was not planned for regular production as a new variety or even a tested concept. On the other hand, if it were shown that the ink used to make the pink was intentionally fugitive then the variety might be thought of as another very late reuse prevention test. Against this is the fact that no record of such testing was made or acknowledged by the American Bank Note Co who had produced the stamp. Nor has there been any association of the colorant with any patent. Yet apart from either of these conditions the use of a pink additive appears to have been unintentional.

Once we have established that the addition of the colorant was not intended, we enter into the domain of the EFO specialist. Production mishaps, if it was that, vary in their implications for collectability. Engraving mistakes are worse than printing problems. Printing in the wrong color is worse than printing with too much oil in the ink. Among classics collectors, stamps printed on both sides will get attention from most specialists and even the general collecting public. By contrast, stamps printed on creased paper, resulting in pre-printing folds, get mild attention from some, and avoidance from others. Few are interested in buying scooped prints at a premium. How a mistake was made, and its significance, has a lot of bearing on who and how many will be interested in it.

If it were to turn out that a batch of paper had been mildly damaged by a spill of pink colorant, and that after discarding most of the worst cases, one sheet was printed that had a detectable residual of the pink, so pale as to be barely noticeable, how would collectors regard that? For most collectors it would be a curiosity which they would not seek out but might keep if they came across one, and for which they would not be willing to pay a premium. Generally speaking, only hard core specialists would eagerly add one to a collection - if the price was right.

Are you getting the picture?

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Edited by essayk - 05/16/2018 09:25 am
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Posted 05/16/2018   10:51 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
thank you, as always, for your detailed and good explanation, essayk. I understood much better now what this is all about. So perhaps somebody will find one day a letter, invoice etc. containing more information about this to show it was an intentional use, like fugitive ink against reuse (the ink could be compared between the example at the PF and the known stamps which have such ink). Brookman was the last one who found a bit of information, and someday maybe another piece of the puzzle will appear. If not, it will be, just as we have to see it today, defined as an "accident".
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Posted 05/16/2018   11:37 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lokidog99 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
For essayk et. al. - Thank you for the thorough explanation of the history of "216a". Again, being an amateur, I was not aware of the many nuances of authentication. In the interest of educating myself a little more, I attempted to locate the full text of the Brookman discussion of the topic but was unable to locate Vol 3 for anything under three figures. Is there a chance that would be available as an excerpt?

In any case thanks to all of you for the fascinating discussion and I guess my "curiosity" will remain just that.
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