Stunning US Revenue Stamps On 1867 Final Will. Comments Please.

This is the 1867 Last Will from a family member. The $10 US #R93c conveyance stamp is fantastic and the US #R81c stamp is cool but not as valuable. However, when combined and beautifully placed on this absolutely pristine document is over the top awesome in my opinion.

I am interested in the opinion of board commentators what they think of this item and if they have any opinion on its value. I have to think that it is worth many times more than what the stamps would commend as stand alone items. I have never seen a similar document with these revenue stamps. I am sure that there are others, but good luck finding any of them.

Comments please.



*** Moved by Staff to a more appropriate forum. ***

It's a great historical piece for your family, but unfortunately not very scarce. There are many documents of this kind out there. The two stamps have a combined catalogue value of $41.50. In terms of market value, since it is not an ornately printed/engraved document, I would expect to see this sort of document offered in the $15-35 range depending on venue.

I think it's a great piece to hold onto as a part of family history; its value in that regard is priceless.

Stunning is a very accurate title for this!

A great looking document. With two great looking stamps. Not often seen in such great shape - both the stamps & the document.

I'll defer to revcollector on value. But I'll have to agree - unless the will is from someone famous or of historical value, the premium beyond the stamp value is not going to be alot.

His valuation for your family is very accurate! This is a keeper / family heirloom...

revenuecollector,

Thank you for your insightful comments. It is really helpful for me to have an expert like you comment about this item. If the catalogue value of the stamps alone are $41.50, I would think that they would sell for $8-$12 at retail if they were separated from the document. With the stamps on the document, then the value increases to $15-$35, which is a 2-3 times increase. I probably would not sell this item for less than $30. It simply looks too fine to go for a lower price. And then there is the "family" value, for which no simple monetary value can be attached.

May I ask. Where would I find other similar items that would be for sale?

Probably a search on ebay for "document" or "documents" within the Stamps > United States > Revenue section. Also, a search for "revenue" within the Collectibles hierarchy might turn some up as well.

revenuecollector,

I looked on ebay for documents with revenue stamps and there was the biggest pile of junk I had ever seen. There were some okay stamps, but the documents themselves were absolutely lame. Most of the documents are in terrible condition. Stamps were haphazardly applied. Etc. After looking at this stuff, I have to think that my document is off-the-charts incredible. There may be other documents with revenue stamps, but I don't see anything that even comes close to my item in terms of quality and condition. The value of any such items all depends on the nature of the stamps, but also the quality of the stamps and the quality of the document. My experience is that as the condition of the item goes up, the price rises exponentially. As the poster mdroth agrees, this is a stunning item. It is not a single page document, of course, and is full in its original entirety. The document also has the seal of the City of Philadelphia, which also adds value in my opinion. I am not listing it for sale, so who knows what it would bring in a listing. If I were to list it, I would have to do more research. My inclination is that in this condition, the item is at least a $100 document. The will is for Isaac Winslow, a direct descendant of the famous Edward Winslow that came over on the Mayflower in 1620 and who served as the Governor of the Plymouth Colony in the 1600's.

If you're not going to sell it or insure it, I'm not sure why it matters what the document is worth. If you feel it's worth $100, then it's worth $100 to you. It isn't to me, but opinions and valuations will vary by venue, by seller, and by buyer.

Enjoy the document.

SewallH,
What is the logic of asking for a valuation, getting one from a highly experienced person, then pushing back with a valuation of your own? Bad form, it is inconsiderate of the time that people invest in replying to your posts. It is now likely that fewer people will reply to your posts.
Don

Don.

you make a valid point and no insult was intended. The astute poster revenuecollector pointed me towards ebay listings where I could see similar items like the one I posted. I figured that these would support his view of a $18-$35 value for the item. I am not looking to sell, but only get an idea of value. Needless to say, I was shocked at the poor quality of all the items of all the listings that were at that site. It just reinforced my view regarding the quality of my item. I just do not see stuff like this around, so I really wonder if it is as common as was indicated. Noting wrong with some open give and take on matters like this.

Ok, now I'm getting annoyed.

1. A single snapshot in time of active or completed listings on ebay does not constitute proof one way or the other with respect to the "quality" or "value" of your item. Maybe you should shop for these sorts of items for a decade or two across online venues, at stamp shows, at major auctions, and from brick & mortar dealers... and then maybe you'll have the experience necessary to gauge things like this and how common or uncommon they actually are in the marketplace.

2. Revenue stamp collectors will be far less enamored with the "incredible quality" than you think. What stamps are being used, what an when and where is the usage, etc. These stamps are relatively common. Sure, if you find the perfect buyer, looking for that EXACT type of document, with that EXACT combination of stamps, you might get someone willing to pay huge amounts for it, or if you sell it to an audience that knows nothing about these, e.g., through an antique dealer or flea market.

3. You've already said you don't want to sell it, so Why. Does. The. Value. Matter?

4. You seem to be only interested in finding an echo chamber where everyone agrees with your novice assessment of how incredible, rare, and valuable your document is. Well, here you go "It's probably worth a bazillion dollars. Go forth and profit!"


I'm done.

revcollector,

I did not intend to get you annoyed. My apologies. I think that I have been very gracious and complimentary to you in my posts. I am clearly not interested in operating in an echo chamber and I am far from a novice. In fact I have a large and extensive collection of revenue stamps from around the world, in addition to a massive general postage stamp collection. What I do not have in my collection are documents of this type with revenue stamps. I have plenty of documents (eg old checks etc) with first and second issue revenue stamps and standalone revenue stamps (no Persian Rugs or playing card stamps though), but nothing like this. I am simply seeking knowledge and opinions and comparable examples to my item. I never said that my document was rare. The reason why I posted was because this is the only such document I have in my collection, the document is in exceptional condition,the stamps are beautifully attached to the document, and because I have been unable to find on the internet any similar document. I do not think it unreasonable for me to seek out similar examples of this item to see what they looked like, what their condition is, and what they sell for. You were very kind to offer a value for me item. Thank you for that. But I am also be interested in seeing other examples. I followed your advice and went to the site you suggested. I simply reported back on what I saw. Further research does not yield much, although I found a poorer quality document on Eric Jackson's web site that had the #R93c and two other excellent revenue stamps. He was asking $325. Eric Jackson's revenue stamp storefront routinely lists a stand alone #R93c for $35.

All that said, please do not take offense to my comments or observations which may not be in line with what you have posted. I will relate a story along these lines. When my mother passed, she had three Tiffany lamps. I took them in person to one of the two most foremost and well recognized experts in these lamps in New York City. I received a value estimate of $70,000 cash for the three. As is my custom, I did not take the "experts" opinion as gospel. The expert said that the lamps were common, not in good condition, etc etc. My further research led me to believe that the "expert" was way off the mark. In the end, I tracked down other leading experts and through hard work found all comparable items and their values. What did I find? Two of the lamps were actually of unusual beauty and rarity. In the end, one of the lamps was sold to a well informed buyer that paid a mere $365,000 for it. Just for one of the lamps. The other lamp was worth probably $60,000, but it stayed in the family. The third lamp was worth $12,000 and sits on my desk.

Regarding my interest in finding its value, there are many excellent reasons to know the value of what you own. Here are two perfect examples. My wife told me not 6 months ago that when I pass away, she would probably throw out my stamp collection or sell it at a garage sale for $100-$200. She knows nothing of stamps and is not interested. I of course had to inform her that this was not a wise plan and that the collection was worth a significant amount of money. Her tune has changed since then as I have told her that I have sold $2500 worth of items from my collection and have not even made the tiniest of reductions to the number of stamps/covers/documents in the collection. It is important to know what things are worth so that they can be properly cared for and then sold or handed down appropriately when the time comes. Everyone knows that stamp collections get handed down to people who have no clue about values and are not in the least bit interested in such. These collections are often given away and I have purchased some from such sellers. My daughter is not interested in my collection and as such, I will eventually sell this item. I am not having it put into my coffin with me. Therefore, I completely disagree with you and some posters here saying effectively "who cares what the value of this item is if you are planning to keep it".

Here is another stunning personal example. I own two items af whale baleen that are covered with intricate scrimshaw from 1834. These items hung in my room growing up and had been passed down through several generations to me. For the past 15 years, these have sat in my basement exposed and not wrapped up. My mother had no clue as to their value and I had inherited them upon her death. She had no idea as to their value and they look to some like curiosity pieces. Eventually, I decided that it was time to do something with them, either sell them or display them. To do so, I conducted extensive due diligence. At a super high end antique show in Newport Rhode Island an "expert" offered my $500 for the pair. That was my first "opinion" as to their value. After further work, I eventually came to the conclusion that they should be taken to the foremost whaling museum in the United States (The New Bedford Whaling Museum) for evaluation, which I did not more than one month ago. Well, low and behold. The two items turn out to be the finest known pieces of scrimshaw in existence in the world, are one of a kind, and with other related materials in my possession are the finest collection of whaling materials ever seen by the museum's curator. I asked the curator what he thought the value was and his response was "they are priceless". He asked me immediately to donate them to the museum and that they would build a special exhibition space to display them. Last year a scrimshaw whale tooth of a quality that could not even come close to matching my items sold at auction for a mere $465,000. My wife and daughter had no idea as to the value of these items and if I was no longer living, these times would be getting sold at some local flea market.

As such, I think the advice to forgo determining the value of something in a collection is bad advice, regardless of whether you plan to keep the item. I would never give such advice to anyone.

Thanks for you assistance and time at looking at my document.

Sewal - Rev - Don -

All posts are good here. No intention of ill-will that I can see. It's a good discussion.

Sewal - as I said, it's an awesome document. You may be in the 'wrong' forum.

From a stamp collector's perspective - having heard from one of our foremost experts in the area - you've been given a value. Keep checking ebay & other auction sites. You'll eventually find a document of similar quality & stamps, and then you'll have a better idea of market value. Even if we give your doc a 4x or 5x value - we're barely at $200. It's not a 6-figure item as the tiffany lamps or whale baleen. Not even a 5-figure item, and highly unlikely even a 4-figure item.

Ignoring the stamps, I have no idea what a collector of antique/rare wills would think? Given what you've said, my guess is best/wild-good case scenario, it's a couple hundred bucks. But I would certainly encourage you to continue asking in various venues. It's not like the document is expiring any time soon?!

Value - in all cases - is relative. Find the right buyer, and the value is unlimited. Try to sell it next week on ebay? You'll be lucky to get $50.

Again - my opinion - awesome piece. Hang on to it. You'll learn more about it in good time...

PS Please tell your wife to send me a notice a few days before the garage sale!!

Valuations are opinions no matter whence the come and are not absolute scientifically deduced and sound conclusions. They can have weight and consequence but at the end of the day they are rendered by fallible human beings with potential bias, ego, predisposition issues and whom could be influenced by personalities and even the weather (arthritis issues etc.) as well as peer pressure. My pragmatic measuring stick is would the person rendering the opinion be acceptable to an insurance company as providing a defensible valuation.

Common stamps, average centering, ordinary usage. Nice to find a $10 value still on a document, but all in all $35 is pretty accurate.

revcolector,

I greatly appreciate your comments and insights as an expert in the field. I hope to be able to post additional back of book items on this forum.