Stamp Community Family of Web Sites
Thousands of stamps, consistently graded, competitively priced and hundreds of in-depth blog posts to read
Stamp Community Forum
 
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some stamps?
Our stamp forum is completely free! Register Now!

Envelope 1905 From Signapore To Karaikudi

Next Page    
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 18 / Views: 743Next Topic
Page: of 2
Valued Member

Greece
158 Posts
Posted 02/21/2019   4:33 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add manosp to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Any information/evaluation about these postmarks ?






*** Moved by Staff to a more appropriate forum. ***
Send note to Staff

Pillar Of The Community
France, Metropolitan
2602 Posts
Posted 02/21/2019   5:36 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
My basic info is Singapore departure cancel with a "8" charge handstamp.Arrival Karaikudi
(South India) cancel with a "T" tax handstamp on arrival.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
2713 Posts
Posted 02/21/2019   5:54 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Rather: Karaikudi (Dec 9) to Singapore (Dec 18)?
Originally addressed in black, then the portions underlined in red were translated - enough to get it delivered.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by John Becker - 02/21/2019 6:14 pm
Pillar Of The Community
France, Metropolitan
2602 Posts
Posted 02/21/2019   6:06 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Karaikudi departure cancels for that time period look like this: A date mix up?



I guess the stampless cover would read departure from Karaikudi like this one from

www.coverstoryltd.com/index.php?s=177&sort=description&c=1




1899 incoming stampless cover from Karaikudi, India via Negapatam bearing on reverse these cancels, '8' charge handstamp and Singapore cds, the front with framed Postage Due handstamp on despatch and 'T' on arrival. Some faults to envelope.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by perf12 - 02/21/2019 6:14 pm
Valued Member
India
339 Posts
Posted 02/22/2019   1:11 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Joy Daschaudhuri to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
A little learning is a dangerous thing
Alexander Pope (1688-1744) in "An Essay on Criticism" (1709)

Once again this instant internet expert proves it.

@perf12

Quote:

My basic info is Singapore departure cancel with a "8" charge handstamp.Arrival Karaikudi (South India) cancel with a "T" tax handstamp on arrival.


This cover was sent from Karaikkudi (10.0731N 78.7802E), now in Sivagangai district of Tamizh Nadu to Singapura as the underlined last part of the address in Tamizh clearly shows.



Secondly, T Taxe marks were always applied at the country of origin, not destination.

Here the circular T mark (recorded used 1886 to 1907) is of Nagappattinam Office of Foreign Exchange, as Karaikkudi till then was not issued this stamp.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
India
339 Posts
Posted 02/22/2019   1:13 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Joy Daschaudhuri to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
@perf12

Quote:

Karaikudi departure cancels for that time period look like this: A date mix up?




This Karaikkudi postmark is Smith type A27A combined datestamp and obliterator which was introduced only in 1910 whereas the cover in question is from 1905.

This very type with movable hour slugs was allotted to selected HPOs/SPOs, replacing the earlier allotted datestamp with index letters denoting specific time of dispatch. It was discontinued in 1936.

Moreover combined datestamp and obliterators were specifically issued to POs to cancel postage stamps and stamp imprints on postal stationeries, so it could never be used on unpaid covers unlike the datestamp like on the 1905 cover, which had multipurpose role.

Datestamps were impressed on postal articles to indicate the name of the post office and the date, acting as both dispatch and receipt marks, in addition to on missent and redirected letters. These were also authorized to be used to cancel stamp imprints of postal stationeries in the Branch POs/Extra-Departmental POs which were not issued combined datestamps.

The Karaikkudi cds type shown here was introduced in 1893 to selected HPOs/SPOs which were not allotted cdss with index letters denoting specific time or cdss with district name.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by Joy Daschaudhuri - 02/22/2019 1:15 pm
Valued Member
India
339 Posts
Posted 02/22/2019   1:20 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Joy Daschaudhuri to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
@perf12

Quote:

I guess the stampless cover would read departure from Karaikudi like this one from www.coverstoryltd.com/index....ption&c=11899

www.stampcommunity.org/uploa...1_2124cc.jpg" border="0" style='cursor:default' onClick='doimage(this,event)'>

1899 incoming stampless cover from Karaikudi, India via Negapatam bearing on reverse these cancels, '8' charge handstamp and Singapore cds, the front with framed Postage Due handstamp on despatch and 'T' on arrival.


Where is the front which shows the unique 'T' on arrival?
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
India
339 Posts
Posted 02/22/2019   1:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Joy Daschaudhuri to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply




The letter rate from India to Singapura was 1A for every 14.18gm (oz) from December 25,1898 to September 30,1907 when the weight slab was increased to 28.35gm (1oz).

Now the basic surface mail rate 1A was equivalent to 25 gold LMU and since this cover was unpaid, the cover was charged double deficiency 2A i.e. equivalent to 50 gold LMU which was converted to 8c in Singapura, indicated by Proud UP46 handstamp 8 (used 10/1888-4/1918), as the basic surface rate to India (and other GB colonies) was 4c per 14.18gm (oz) from December 25,1898 to September 30,1907.

What is new here is Proud D67 datestamp of Singapura which Proud records being used only on 04.21.1906. whereas the example here extends the period of use back to 12.18.1905.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
India
339 Posts
Posted 02/22/2019   1:28 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Joy Daschaudhuri to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Routing: From 1903 to 1911, a fortnightly Nagappattinam to Singapura line was operated by British India Steam Navigation Company via Pinang when mail was sent only on every alternate Tuesdays.

So this cover left Nagappattinam on 12.12.1905., reached Pinang on 12.14.1905. and finally Singapura on 12.16.1905.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by Joy Daschaudhuri - 02/23/2019 06:52 am
Pillar Of The Community
France, Metropolitan
2602 Posts
Posted 02/22/2019   1:49 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
India
339 Posts
Posted 02/22/2019   2:24 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Joy Daschaudhuri to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
As expected, the rectangular bipartite Postage Due mark was applied at Karaikkudi, which was irrelevant with respect to unpaid/underpaid mail to foreign destinations which is why no due amount i.e. 2in the space proved before Ana was entered in manuscript.

The circular T is a typical Indian mark, which here was again used by the Nagappattinam Office of Foreign Exchange.

The Singapura T Taxe marks during that time were triangular.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
France, Metropolitan
2602 Posts
Posted 02/22/2019   3:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Wrong discription by the seller then. Oh well.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Australia
1391 Posts
Posted 02/22/2019   4:37 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bobby De La Rue to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Fascinating information as always Joy, thank you

Could you please tell us, is 4 days from Pinang (ie: Penang for any readers who aren't sure) to Singapore usual and was the service overland or by the Malacca Strait?
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
Greece
158 Posts
Posted 02/22/2019   5:36 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add manosp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks a lot perf12, John Becker and Joy Daschaudhuriy.

Joy Daschaudhuriy very informative comments ! one thing im not understand is that you said "What is new here is Proud D67 datestamp of Singapura which Proud records being used only on 04.21.1906. whereas the example here extends the period of use back to 12.18.1905." .

I found this in an auction https://www.stampcircuit.com/stamp-...-schutzstaat

Is that the same cds >?

And also how someone evaluate a postcard / main cover / envelope ?
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
India
339 Posts
Posted 02/23/2019   06:55 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Joy Daschaudhuri to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
No. The Singapura datestamp on that 1905 Johor Bahru to Oss cover is Proud D65 mark, recorded by Proud being used from 01.17.1905. to 12.20.1906.

There is an extensive chronological list of all recorded postmarks of Singapura used from 1829 to 1965, published in Postal History of British Malaya (Vol.I: Straits Settlements) 2000 2nd Ed., edited by Edward Wilfrid Baxby Proud, where each and every postmark has been arranged in accordance of type (e.g. pre-stamp mark, datestamp, killer, combined datestamp and obliterator, registration mark, tax mark etc. etc.) and assigned specific number based on Proud copyrighted numbering system, with range of dates of usage (earliest redorded date and latest recorded date).

In the Postal History of British Malaya (Vol.I: Straits Settlements) 1982 1st Ed., there was no distinction between D65 and D67. Both were listed under D44 but in the 2000 2nd Ed., there was a complete overhaul of the postmark listing.

There were 26 different hammers of Singapura datestamps with inset arcs and hour slugs, each prima facie appears similar but differs in minute details.
I will post the illustrations later.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
India
339 Posts
Posted 02/23/2019   06:57 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Joy Daschaudhuri to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
@manosp

Quote:

And also how someone evaluate a postcard / main cover / envelope ?


Valuation of covers or postcards basically depends on factors like
postmark scarcity and clarity of impression (important criterion in pre-stamp entires) and rare use of specific color of ink of postmarks, uncommon destination, short period of specific mail routing, condition etc. etc. and also auxiliary markings indicating suspension of service, jusqu', redirection, censorship etc. etc.
And there is always the supply and demand factor.

I shoud add that the valuation of Singapura postmarks by Proud should be taken with say tablespoon of salt.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Page: of 2 Previous TopicReplies: 18 / Views: 743Next Topic  
Next Page
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.


Go to Top of Page
Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Stamp Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2020 Stamp Community Family - All rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Stamp Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Privacy Policy / Terms of Use    Advertise Here
Stamp Community Forum © 2007 - 2020 Stamp Community Forums
It took 0.52 seconds to lick this stamp. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05