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Not my stamp - someone sent me asking for an ID. Expert opinions welcome!   |
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
1942 Posts |
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My responses are limited to and by what I am able to see clearly. Not in your control, I understand, but a limiting factor nonetheless.
In my counting of the points, I see 18 rows from top to bottom. If the first column of points on the left consists of "half points" then I count 14 1/2 columns side to side. If that first column is indeed a column of half points, then this is a good candidate for a Z-grill, which was the only grill type with half points running vertically. But if these are indeed normal grill points, then the grill has 15 columns of points, and is a fake emulation of a D-grill on a 12c, or an imprecise knock-off of an E-grill.
Now, those are my initial impressions based on what I am able to see in the photo, and that photo does not give me a really good look at the points. If you can give us a straight-on shot of the grill-only with good lighting (not too dim, not too bright) coming in slightly off to one side, then I may be able to comment on point shapes and the kind of distribution we can expect for that. I also see some shadowing on the right that might be due to another column of points, but I can't tell. |
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| Edited by essayk - 06/29/2019 5:14 pm |
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Perfs along left side are spaced waaay too far apart, definitely a reperf job. Thus I agree with essayk, inspecting the grill more closely for additional doctoring is advised. |
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The grill with "half" rows on the right and left side must be Z-I grill. The possibility of a faker impressing a grill that sharp is low. A sharp impression is a Z grill characteristic. The improperly spaced perforations on the left and the trimmed lower right corner will relegate this stamp to space filler or reference status. Finding a well- defined Z-I grill in any condition is difficult. Differences between the 14 vertical row Z grill and the 13 vertical row Z-I grill with vertical "half rows" is documented in a volume of Philatelic Foundation Opinions Book series. I don't have the reference handy. A clean scan of the front and back of the stamp would be helpful. Also, some expertizing services will discount fees for damaged or badly off center stamps. |
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| Edited by cfrphoto - 06/30/2019 12:18 am |
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Here's a couple more of his cell phone pix. Told the guy to get good scans... What's a 'Z-I' grill???   |
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On some images the row seems like half points, on other more just like weak but "normal" points. This would bring us to the question how to distinguish whether a row has really half points or only weak point impressions?
Maybe this can help in identifying this grill.
It would also be interesting to know the direction of the paper as Z grills seem to have horizontal grain while E grills seem to have vertical grain (only my experience, perhaps here the other members could help as well). |
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| Edited by stamperix - 06/30/2019 05:36 am |
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mdroth: How on earth are you getting such sharp and magnified pictures of the grill? Being able to do that and evaluating grills on my laptop screen would make my life way easier when it comes to grill-identifying. |
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The pictures aren't mine - I just told the guy what I wanted & he sent me these pictures on whatsapp. I just uploaded them here. I assume he took them with a cellphone...
Actually the guy is bringing me the stamp to look at tomorrow. I'll take a good scan of it & probably dip it as well & post the pictures. But I will ask him what he used to take the photos... |
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Pillar Of The Community
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Thank you for the additional pics. I needed a better look at the column of "half points" which is the first column on the left opposite (not adjacent) to the side with the clipped perfs. Now I can see that these are not half points but are a partially effaced strike of full points. So my count is 15x18. Those are the dimensions for a D-grill, which was not used on the 12c. I am not ready to dismiss it entirely just yet, since I would like to see the shape of the individual points and get a clear look at the orientation of the grill ridges. Pending the appearance of the scan when it is made available I am not inclined to see it as an authentic grill at this point. But my mind is still open.
When the scan becomes available, could we get a close look at the obverse grill impression as well as the view from the reverse? |
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| Edited by essayk - 06/30/2019 4:22 pm |
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Quote:
What's a 'Z-I' grill??? The Philatelic Foundation article referenced above is in " Opinions IV" by the Philatelic Foundation. "The Recognition of Two Major Types of The Z Grill" by Jerome S. Wagshal – 87 Links to the table of contents and the PDF version are below: http://www.philatelicfoundation.org...inside-view/http://wyzaerd-pf-prod.s3.amazonaws...CS-and-B.pdfNote: The outer vertical rows of the grill vary suggesting that a screw machine scribed vertical rows on the cylinder. Horizontal rows were then scribed across the cylinder, leaving horizontal tips on the pyramids. Finally, unwanted points between grills were burnished off leaving rectangles of grill points to be impressed onto sheets of stamps. Unlike other grills, the Z grill cylinder must have rolled vertically across each sheet instead of horizontally. Quote:The Z grill category, including both classifications, is characterized by: • Grill bosses having a horizontal ridge at the tip of each point, and • Eighteen points or rows vertically. The two subcategories are One which shows fourteen points across. I will refer to this subcategory as the "-Z-" grill, with the dashes signifying the uniform horizontal direction of the ridges. A second which shows only thirteen points across and almost always with an additional row of grill points, having a vertical ridge, at the left and right borders, thereby framing the horizontally-ridged body of the grill. To distinguish this variety from the -Z- grill as described above, I will refer to it as the "Z-I" grill, the "I" being intended to signify the direction of the ridges on the tips of the outer rows at left and right. Diagramatically, the two varieties may be shown as follows:  Like most philatelic categorizations, this one is not perfect. As more fully discussed below, some Z grilled stamps will exhibit intermediate characteristics, such as having the left or right vertically-ridged rows absent or barely discernible, or having a fourteenth horizontally-ridged row not quite as wide as the horizontal ridges on the inner bosses in the body of the grill. However, I believe that most Z grilled stamps will clearly fall into one subcategory or the other, -Z-or Z-I. Accordingly, these two subcategories merit recognition by serious students of the grills and perhaps by the philatelic community generally. |
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| Edited by cfrphoto - 06/30/2019 5:14 pm |
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Valued Member
United States
234 Posts |
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docgfd You may be interested in a simple setup I put together several years ago. It is useful for other things, but appears to work well with grills. The technique uses oblique lighting with a simple digital microscope. I bought mine from Amazon but they are available other places as well, are very inexpensive and operate with the computer via USB connection. This is the one I bought. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...e=UTF8&psc=1 I use an inexpensive LED flashlight held at a low angle for illumination, but the built in illumination is useful for other images as well. This is the setup. Mine is a bit upgraded mechanically but that is all.  This is the image as displayed live on the computer monitor, and may be saved on your PC.  As an example of the stored images here is a similar shot of the front and back of Scott US 121.   Hope you find this information useful. Gary |
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Met the guy - very nice guy. Very excited about stamps! First 2 are scans - which don't tell much:   These 2 are with my cell phone - in fluid:   These last 2 are with his cell phone, under lots of natural light:   After looking at this stamp - for quite a while - under magnification - I'm somewhat convinced it is a real grill. But I cannot decide what kind.... Thoughts & opinions welcome!! |
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Quote:
After looking at this stamp - for quite a while - under magnification - I'm somewhat convinced it is a real grill. But I cannot decide what kind....
Thoughts & opinions welcome!! Did you read my last post? Vertical partial rows are found only on Z grills. Horizontal part rows are common on E grills. |
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I read your last post; but as the Z-I grill is a new concept to me, I am not sure of it by any means. You mentioned nothing of 'E' grills. Is your opinion this is genuine and a Z-I grill?? |
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Quote:
Is your opinion this is genuine and a Z-I grill?? It cannot be anything else. While E grill examples are sometimes misidentified as Z grills, there is no possibility of that here. The Z grill layout is thoroughly documented in the Wagshal article. Except for A grills, 1867-68 grills are less frequently faked than the 1870 Bank Note grills. Direct examination is required to certify the grill as genuine. The Philatelic Foundation and PSE sometimes offer reduced rates for high catalog stamps with condition issues. |
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Replies: 33 / Views: 3,777 |
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Posted 06/29/2019 3:14 pm
